Urealistic Phalanx.

[HuangCaesar]

Hey I'm battling the Selucids and wanted to defeat them with a quick hammer and anvil charge. I charged with overwhealming force and the pikemen turned around and pointed their pikes at my cav and I lost all my cav.....Seriously? I'm not sure Vanilla total war you could do that.

The enemy pikemen didn't even lift their pikes and repoint, they just turned.....that is pure unrealism. A rear charge will almost always destroy a phalanx.

[GaussSoldier]

A cavalry unit, unless they're meant to stand and fight or being sent against weak infantry, need to be micromanaged if they're going to last long enough to be effective. What you describe has happened to me in every instance of playing RTW, modded or not. Phalanx units in this mod are considered particularly strong, not to mention that they have a natural bonus against cavalry (I think). I recommend using AP units in the rear instead of cavalry.

The trick to effective cavalry usage is to get your them away from the enemy as soon as the charge makes contact. Cavalry reacts much faster in RTW than Medieval so this tactic is key to a long life for your units.

[Boriak]

Which cavalry units did you use? How many? I usually don't have problems with ramming a phalanx and I have minimal casualties in my cavalry but that's because I pull them out the moment the charge is complete. It's also important to pick the right time to do this. A phalanx that is without company of friendly units (exposed flanks), being poured on by javelin volleys and/or fire arrows and possibly in the vicinity of morale breaking units (elephants, some 'barbarian' units), will break much sooner.

Can't expect to eat a phalanx unit raw. You have to stuff it, bake it, then you can break it.

[Samariten]

I am fighting Epeiros agema phalanx with the same tactics though i use Roman camillan/polybian units. I wait until the phalanx unit get tired before i charge or atleast i brake my charge to do another one if they are not tired yet. It works just fine they dont turn against my horses and i am use romani equites which are not famous for their charge. Perhaps it could be that the enemy phalanx you charge are not fully engaged with your infantry? But i have faced turning units if i have charged them to early on in the battle. I just speculate someone else have to answer if that is so.

[Jive]

Hey I'm battling the Selucids and wanted to defeat them with a quick hammer and anvil charge. I charged with overwhealming force and the pikemen turned around and pointed their pikes at my cav and I lost all my cav.....Seriously? I'm not sure Vanilla total war you could do that.

The enemy pikemen didn't even lift their pikes and repoint, they just turned.....that is pure unrealism. A rear charge will almost always destroy a phalanx.

Sorry dude, but "quick hammer and anvil charge"(s) don't generally work in EB. Better stick with vanilla.

Also sorry to be ornery, so if you're really interested I'll brag about how I've busted phalanxes--elite or otherwise-- in my KH campaign. Since the KH don't have them (yet, anyway) their best direct counter is the classical Greek hoplite. However, they can't stand up to pikemen frontally and they're not fast enough for flanking. Better let the phalanx come for you, and use slingers to whittle them down from side and rear while your infantry keeps falling back to avoid impalement on them pikes. Of course you gotta make sure your missile units are protected from cavalry and other enemy units. Once the pikemen are sufficiently attrited you can surround them with regulars and hack them to death.

Sounds easy, but there's a lot of micro-management to it. And there's nothing original about my experience; it's already been covered in the List of Tactical Advice (under Gameplay Guides and AAR's at the Org). Check it out.

As far as realism is concerned, perfection is not of this world. So what would you rather have: An extremely complex and challenging mod that comes about as close as any to the real thing, or a relatively quick study in which the horsies run wild?

Thanks for reading and hope you develop an appreciation for EB. Cheers.

[Entropy Judge]

Hey I'm battling the Selucids and wanted to defeat them with a quick hammer and anvil charge. I charged with overwhealming force and the pikemen turned around and pointed their pikes at my cav and I lost all my cav.....Seriously? I'm not sure Vanilla total war you could do that.

The enemy pikemen didn't even lift their pikes and repoint, they just turned.....that is pure unrealism.

Well, yes, the pike scythe is known, and does happen in vanilla Rome. It's not an EB thing, it's not a historical-accuracy thing, it's an engine limitation thing. You might as well complain about being able to perfectly coordinate a 20-unit army, because it fits under the same umbrella.

As for the issue you're having ... in my experience, if you're engaging a phalanx formation and want to break it with a cavalry charge (which you're typically going to need either several charges, overwhelming force, or top-tier cavalry), get your infantry into melee range first - don't charge until after your infantry are fighting against sword-armed phalangites, because it lowers the chances of the unit deciding to change targets. You see, the AI likes to face the most dangerous enemy that's nearby, so you can get an AI pike-block to stand still by keeping a unit of heavy infantry in front of it, but if you put a heavier force of infantry behind it, they'll usually turn around and face the rear force. It sounds like that's what happened to your cavalry - the pikemen were facing your infantry *with their pikes*, and when your cavalry hit them, they switched targets and scythed your cavalry. Yeah, sucks when that happens.

A rear charge will almost always destroy a phalanx.

Not really true. I've done multi-cav charges (two Thessalian Heavies, two Thracian Mediums) on individual Elite African Pikemen units and not made them break immediately (more specifically: one TH to keep their attention, with the other three charging from both flanks and the rear; when the pike turned, the second TH charges. It doesn't always break a unit when the charges connect, and once it took two complete charges to break the unit). Weight of the unit matters, as well - Thessalian Heaviers are going to do more damage than Thracian Mediums, which are going to do better than Illyrian Lights. Moreover, some cavalry are just bad at charging and shouldn't do it.

[athanaric]

Well, yes, the pike scythe is known, and does happen in vanilla Rome. It's not an EB thing, it's not a historical-accuracy thing, it's an engine limitation thing. You might as well complain about being able to perfectly coordinate a 20-unit army, because it fits under the same umbrella.

To put it bluntly, it's a bug. Thus not EB related. The only reason people notice it more in EB is because in this mod, phalanx is stronger from the front and consequently, the glitch becomes more noticeable.

[Boriak]

Roman cavalry is horrible at charging. So is the Greek cavalry which you can hire in Taras and Rhegion. The only ones who you can use are the Gallic Light cavalry.

Generally, the Romans have infantry good enough that they don't need chargers. Just use the Allied Heavy Infantry to attack a phalanx from the side and feed the phalanx from the front with Rorarii.

[Samariten]

Roman cavalry is horrible at charging. So is the Greek cavalry which you can hire in Taras and Rhegion. The only ones who you can use are the Gallic Light cavalry.

Generally, the Romans have infantry good enough that they don't need chargers. Just use the Allied Heavy Infantry to attack a phalanx from the side and feed the phalanx from the front with Rorarii.

l agree roman cavalry isnt the best for charging. l never had any problem using them in an anvil and hammer tactics though. lts all about how one manage his/her army.

[yuezhi]

Roman cavalry is horrible at charging. So is the Greek cavalry which you can hire in Taras and Rhegion. The only ones who you can use are the Gallic Light cavalry.

Generally, the Romans have infantry good enough that they don't need chargers. Just use the Allied Heavy Infantry to attack a phalanx from the side and feed the phalanx from the front with Rorarii.

my advice: never use cav that hold their spears overhand.

[JaM]

or rather use your heavy infantry for that... you can fix phalanx with one unit,and flank it with another.. Roman legionary were very flexible, they had good line of command, where every Centurion was free to make decisions in battle, so they didnt had to wait for their supreme commander to order them to do something... Thanks to this flexibility they defeated Macedonian Phalanx..

[Boriak]

Macedonians lost to the Romans because they were economically f**ed and socially depleted and the Romans were in the height of their military fitness due to fighting with Carthage. Also, the Macedonian phalanx is worthless without a heavy cavalry arm and that is something you cannot have without a sound economy.

If you want to make the Romans look badass, take a look at Sulla's war against Mithridates in Greece. Sulla went up against 250,000 men with five legions, I think. It was massacre.

[JaM]

Not exactly true.. Romans went against Philip because he threated Greek City States, who called Rome for help.. His army was same size as Roman army fighting against him. He lost because it took too much time to deploy phalanx into formation - Romans didnt wait until he deploys with full force (why would they)... And btw, Phalanx was not that invincible even from front... Once you got past the pikes, they had no chance to defend themselves... also throwing pila into closely packed Phalangities would wreck havoc.

[Entropy Judge]

Not exactly true.. Romans went against Philip because he threated Greek City States, who called Rome for help.. His army was same size as Roman army fighting against him. He lost because it took too much time to deploy phalanx into formation

While true, this statement is disingenuous. The Macedonians were actually physically on the march when they encountered the Romans, and the flank that didn't managed to get into formation? Got hit with elephants. Moreover, you need to prove that the Macedonians were overly slow compared to other forces in a similar circumstance before you can claim that it was "slow reorganization of pike units" that was the issue, and not something else; IIRC, the right flank was the only force of veterans, while the center and left were relatively untrained forces who shouldn't be expected to perform at the same level as more experienced troops. The force that had been deployed from the outset had actually driven the Romans back.

And btw, Phalanx was not that invincible even from front... Once you got past the pikes, they had no chance to defend themselves... also throwing pila into closely packed Phalangities would wreck havoc.

1) Show an example of someone breaking a phalanx from the front, particularly one that doesn't rely on terrain hamstringing the phalanx.
2) Show an example of phalangites being severely threatened by any missile attacks from the front.
3) Cynoscephalae? There's reason to believe that the pikemen there dropped their pikes, engaged the Romans with their sidearms, and still pushed the Romans back.

[Samariten]

Not exactly true.. Romans went against Philip because he threated Greek City States, who called Rome for help.. His army was same size as Roman army fighting against him. He lost because it took too much time to deploy phalanx into formation - Romans didnt wait until he deploys with full force (why would they)... And btw, Phalanx was not that invincible even from front... Once you got past the pikes, they had no chance to defend themselves... also throwing pila into closely packed Phalangities would wreck havoc.

Hmm that is not how i remember the first macedonian war. It was more like a few skirmishes on the shores of the Adriatic between Roman forces and Macedonians. Rome needed a land ally and the senate sought out the Aetolian league though Macedonia defeated the league and Rome could not do much for their allys. When Scipio invaded africa which in turn forced Hannibal home they could now deal with Philip but it ended in a peace threaty were Philip kept most of his gains.

Though in the second macedonian war which i think you are refering to that one the battle of Cynoscephalae were equal forces are meet. Though the macedonian right wing drives back the Romans but as said the left flank with untrained soldiers are eventually routed making the romans to hit Philips right wing in the rear.

Reading about the battles with armies including phalanxes when they face defeat it seems that most of times they are outflanked or in disorder.

[JaM]

i could go deep with explanation, but right now its not possible as i'm in office.. anyway for short, check Time Commander Documentary regarding slow deployment of phalangities...

and regarding other part - just because historians never went deep into how weapons worked (they never attended the battles, they just wrote what they hear from others..) it doesn't mean those weapon would not work to their full potential.. If you are in phalanx formation you could advance only very slowly... anything faster can outpace you, so if you are not protected by own skirmishers, enemy will bombard you from safe distance with everything they got. ( no ancient armor would be able to resist 5kg Pila thrown with standard speed - its simple math, it would got about 1500Joules of energy... even late Gothic steel plates would have problem with it, Linothorax, or Bronze Breastplate would stand no chance...) Anyway, just because something has and edge, it doesn't mean it could penetrate anything.. Pike would have huge problem to go through scutum - you can try yourself by grabbing any spear trying to penetrate plywood.. its practically impossible task.. only chance would be you are able to hit Legionary into face.. but he could rise his shield up... Another thing is, Pikes were thrusted indirectly.. pikemen had no chance to see who they are attacking exactly... (more on this later, when i come home)

[Entropy Judge]

i could go deep with explanation, but right now its not possible as i'm in office.. anyway for short, check Time Commander Documentary regarding slow deployment of phalangities...

Link?

and regarding other part - just because historians never went deep into how weapons worked (they never attended the battles, they just wrote what they hear from others..) it doesn't mean those weapon would not work to their full potential..

This is relevant to ... what, exactly? I'm being serious, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

If you are in phalanx formation you could advance only very slowly...

The Swiss would like a word with you. Moreover, that's only true if the unit is advancing in battle formation. If they're willing to relax the formation so that pikes aren't set for combat, they're capable of moving much more quickly. Finally, the problem is that the Macedonians never got the phalanx set in their left and center, so this whole statement is irrelevant.

anything faster can outpace you, so if you are not protected by own skirmishers, enemy will bombard you from safe distance with everything they got.

And the Persians obviously slaughtered Alexander's Macedonians, what with the bow being the favoured Persian weapon, and Alexander's force being primarily footsloggers.

( no ancient armor would be able to resist 5kg Pila thrown with standard speed - its simple math, it would got about 1500Joules of energy... even late Gothic steel plates would have problem with it, Linothorax, or Bronze Breastplate would stand no chance...)

And yet we never see "And the Legions threw their pila and killed half the enemy forces in the first volley," do we? Hmm ... that's a pretty heavy pilum you're using - you do know they varied from two to five kilograms, right? Anyway, as for penetrating armor - yeah, and everyone carried shields anyway. That's what pila were fairly useful for, disrupting the opening ranks of a formation ... but I can't recall a single instance of pila being used in the manner in which you suggest, and certainly not at Cynoscephalae.

Anyway, just because something has and edge, it doesn't mean it could penetrate anything.. Pike would have huge problem to go through scutum - you can try yourself by grabbing any spear trying to penetrate plywood.. its practically impossible task..

Hm ... I seem to recall a quote that refuted this. I'll edit this post when I find it.

Edit: A couple things:

After clearing the ground where the shattered wall lay in heaps he brought up a movable tower of immense height carrying a large number of men on its numerous stages, and sent on cohort after cohort to break through, if possible, the massed body of Macedonians, which they call the phalanx. But in the narrow space – for the breach in the wall was by no means a wide one – the kind of weapon he used and his style of fighting gave the enemy an advantage. When the serried Macedonian ranks presented their enormously long spears it was like a shield-wall, and when the Romans after fruitlessly hurling their javelins, drew their swords they could not get to close quarters, nor could they hack off the spear-heads; if they did succeed in cutting or breaking any off, the splintered shafts kept their places amongst the points of the uninjured ones and the palisade remained unbroken. Another thing which helped the enemy was the protection of their flanks by that part of the wall which was sound; they had not to attack or retire over a wide stretch of ground, which generally disorders the ranks.

And

For the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands; while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear.

From http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3A2008.01.0003

[JaM]

And yet we never see "And the Legions threw their pila and killed half the enemy forces in the first volley," do we? Hmm ... that's a pretty heavy pilum you're using - you do know they varied from two to five kilograms, right? Anyway, as for penetrating armor - yeah, and everyone carried shields anyway. That's what pila were fairly useful for, disrupting the opening ranks of a formation ... but I can't recall a single instance of pila being used in the manner in which you suggest, and certainly not at Cynoscephalae.

you see, my quote -

and regarding other part - just because historians never went deep into how weapons worked (they never attended the battles, they just wrote what they hear from others..) it doesn't mean those weapon would not work to their full potential..

was exactly because of you saying that... just because historians that wrote about battle that happened several decades ago, and which they didn't witnessed it, it doesnt automatically mean those weapons would not perform as they were designed... 70 cm long shank was not just to bend once penetrating the shield... but to overcome the standoff shield provided and hit whoever was behind the shield... making shield unusable in cases you didn't wounded the men behind is secondary, not primary objective... but ofcourse... killing half of the enemy was not possible at all... accuracy was relativly low even if thrown at short distances, its effect was more indirect... anyway, being in the zone where 400-600 Pilas would land was nothing to joke about...

The Swiss would like a word with you. Moreover, that's only true if the unit is advancing in battle formation. If they're willing to relax the formation so that pikes aren't set for combat, they're capable of moving much more quickly. Finally, the problem is that the Macedonians never got the phalanx set in their left and center, so this whole statement is irrelevant.

and yet, Greeks didnt operated in (relativly) small pike squares but in long line... they didnt used pike square same way - as a defensive 360 degree formation as Swiss or Spanish did.. but even then, holding 5m long sarissa in both hands would definitely make you move slower especially if you have to move in close order formation.. definitely much slower than Legionaries, that even if carried more weight, their weapons were not that unwieldy as long pike is... Dutch actually took that from Romans (Pike Square deployed in Quincunx formation) to make Pike squares more flexible

And the Persians obviously slaughtered Alexander's Macedonians, what with the bow being the favored Persian weapon, and Alexander's force being primarily footsloggers.

- Alexander was not stupid.. he had skirmishers to provide screen for his heavy infantry... plus, ancient bows were not particulary effective against linothorax armor, at least if those research done so far really figured out the material from which Linothorax was made (12-20 layers of linen glued together - http://www.uwgb.edu/aldreteg/AIA.Poster.LowRes2.jpg ) - from pure kinetic energy standpoint, standard bow would deliver about 60-80 joules of energy, light javelin as i have mentioned before would deliver 500-600 Joules of energy, while Pilum over 1500joules...

Link?

here it is: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=400738

they actually used RTW engine for that.. mind you those formations they used were highly inacurate as many other things (Greeks or Macedonian didnt deployed in more than single line, instead they used deeper formation), but its still better than other documentaries that use bunch of guys fighting one on one while dressed in anything that resembles Romans, wearing Lorica Segmentata portraying Scipio's men fighting with Cartage... lol)




Btw, about Scutum - the only way how you could penetrate it with Sarissa would be if entire phalanx was moving against you and you would be standing - this way mass of that formation would be able to deliver enough of energy to go through.. But definitly not by thrusting the sarrisa against it once formation is standing.. And we should not forget the possibility for Roman Legionaries to duck, and get under sarissas,then roll in and start hacking phalangites to pieces with sword... this tactics was often used during Pike and Shot era when two Pike squares met in combat...


edit: There are some historical mentions about effectivity of Pila - for example Battle of Watling Street, where it worked exactly as designed - they completly distrupted Briton charge, which allowed Romans to push forward against wavering enemy.. (and i also remember reading several similar stories in Gallic Wars by G.J.Caesar)

[Entropy Judge]

you see, my quote - was exactly because of you saying that... just because historians that wrote about battle that happened several decades ago, and which they didn't witnessed it, it doesnt automatically mean those weapons would not perform as they were designed...

So ... you're saying we should disregard any written sources and make up scenarios that we think should apply? I'm sorry if that's not what you're saying, but your phrasing is really confusing me. Because you're saying, essentially, that pila were army-killers based on what physics say they're capable of, and I'm saying that we don't have any evidence of that being the case.

70 cm long shank was not just to bend once penetrating the shield... but to overcome the standoff shield provided and hit whoever was behind the shield...

Except you're still going to lose a lot of momentum and accuracy is going to be degraded.

making shield unusable in cases you didn't wounded the men behind is secondary, not primary objective...

Source?

and yet, Greeks didnt operated in (relativly) small pike squares but in long line... they didnt used pike square same way

Except it's still an example of rapid movement being used by a primarily pike-based force. Unless you're going to claim that the Swiss were somehow significantly tougher and stronger than the Hellenes ...

- as a defensive 360 degree formation as Swiss or Spanish did

Perhaps I should explain something about the Swiss. You see, they didn't use the Pike as a "defensive 360-degree formation," like the Spanish (or the Scots), they used the Pike as a battering ram to mow down their enemies. They were mercenaries in the age of pike-and-shot, and hunkering down in those times was asking for the enemy artillery to end your existence.

.. but even then, holding 5m long sarissa in both hands would definitely make you move slower especially if you have to move in close order formation.. definitely much slower than Legionaries, that even if carried more weight, their weapons were not that unwieldy as long pike is...

Did they carry their pikes with them on the march? If pikes are really so unwieldy, it makes sense that - unless a battle was suspected to be imminent - that most of the pikes would be in some kind of baggage train, so as not to unnecessarily wear out the wielders. Of course, that's just me asking a question; I really don't know.

here it is: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=400738

Oh, I remember that. I don't remember it being terribly accurate, either. "Greece was the last piece in the jigsaw." Except for Asia Minor, Egypt, and the Middle East .... And where do they get the "hours" required to set up a phalanx formation? How does that compare to other armies? In any case, it still seems a case of one part of the army being veterans and the other being fresh recruits who don't know what they're doing, because the right wing is formed up and ready to go at about the same time as the Romans (who are all veterans), while the left wing is still getting organized.

And what happens when the right Phalangites, fighting in terrain unsuited for their weapon and formation, hit the Romans? The Romans are driven back. According to your own source: "The poor Romans on the left wing had to confront these pikes that were heading down at a great speed toward them." So even the Macedonian pike formations could manage to move at good speed, even in battle formation!

Not to mention, the phalanx had been beaten before .... Oh, and apparently the Greeks never actually killed anyone .... Anyway, apparently even the poorly-formed left wing can hold off the mighty Roman Hordes until they send in the Hephalumphs, so you're still not making a good point. And then the Macedonian right is outflanked by a quarter of their number, which is not an insignificant amount!

Also, the "phalanx takes up all available manpower so there's no reserves" isn't a problem with the phalanx, so much as those using it. I'm pretty sure that Alexander had tactical reserves in some of his battles ....

And we should not forget the possibility for Roman Legionaries to duck, and get under sarissas,then roll in and start hacking phalangites to pieces with sword... this tactics was often used during Pike and Shot era when two Pike squares met in combat...

It was also supposedly used by Galatians; however, we not only have no evidence of the Romans using it, we have evidence of the Romans being driven back by pike formations! So either the roll is a terrible, near-suicidal technique, or the Romans were utter morons. Or the Roman equipment didn't let them use it.


EDIT:

and my point is - Phalanx was susceptible to disorder or to being flanked

That was hardly a failing unique to the Pike phalanx, however - nearly every ancient formation was vulnerable to flanking, particularly if already engaged. In any case, this was never doubted.

entire discussion started by me pointing out you can use your heavy infantry to defeat Phalanx by fixing them at the front, and flanking the phalanx with another unit and attack from behind or side..

Hm? No, it's not. This is what you said:

nd btw, Phalanx was not that invincible even from front... Once you got past the pikes, they had no chance to defend themselves

The phalanx on the left was broken by elephants, not infantry.

[HuangCaesar]

I think during the Battle of Nile where Caesar's army fought the Egyptian force, the Legionaires threw their Pila and sucessfully ran through the Phanlanx from the front and routed the Pharoh's forces.