Does Damask Steel have permission from SS?

[Massive_attack]

I still think it was a cold thing of them to do. I really don't care if its the best mod ever made, its blatantly ripping off the hard work of dozens of TWC (and other) members, and until I can be confident that they got permission to use all these sources, the mod is worth about as much to me as the gunk stuck between the grooves on my boot.

Seriously. We can joke all we want but this really was a cold, bad thing to do.

Frankly I'm amazed you guys aren't as peeved about this as I am. I guess as long as it looks nice ethics don't really matter, right?

If that's true why don't we let Haegemonia back into the TWC. I'm sure everyone will love to play with all of the pretty assets ripped from the ranks of our very best.

Its not art if all your doing is taking what isn't yours. Its like taking a picture of the mona lisa, running it through instagram, and calling it your own original piece that you made.

[Arana]

The other point of view:
"Verb "loot" or the term "theft" does not fit correctly:
1) There "loot" or "steal" there was nothing. 85% of vanilla. In addition to BGR 4 and 5, there's nothing worked there, and then we don't use it)
2) I look they often use the expression "from our". It can be answered this way: We do not use them, and throw away the rubbish, though still not all the time, but already soon."

And another question: for whom and with what purpose are the mods?
The team of developers Damask Steel - this three people (not 30 as in Bellum), they carry a huge amount of work, who have tried to do something with their own hands, in free from work and family time, he will understand.
And You dear, instead, to support guys, got no use farce. You judge formally, but not in essence.
Indeed, the great and terrible Kin-Kong angry that his creation was such a wonderful continued.
I grieve for mankind.

[danny X]

Well, I'm a member of the War of the West team, and I'm certain that Polycarpe (our mod leader), would not be giving any permissions until atleast the full mod is released!

Thanks for bringing this to our attention OP.

[Polycarpe]

I've seen this Russian page before, I think it was related to Rusishi members but I am not sure.
However, if it's the truth, this is quite a shameful display of using and promoting work they are not make by them and/or without asking permission to the modders involved (which in our case for War of the West).

I had a fellow gentleman that took the time and the respect of asking permission for using our models for a SS submod. But, we have decided that as long as our mod project is not all finished, we won't allow modders to do a mod/submod for a public release, only for their own personal use, otherwise, what would be the point if we share what is unique from a wip project and making our first goal benign or simply typical/normal?

The second thing, I would like to say, is a fellow friend said something quite wise and we in a sense share this point of view

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

~Wille

We can say we are indeed flattered that the work of Lord Hamilton is recognized as his value however it is a quite large lack of respect of not knowing his work is used by other persons, taking all the credit for them and not for the real person behind it and not asking at least the permission.

They can do their "supermod" as they wish but honestly, this mod will be secluded and not really appreciated due to their behaviors about permission/use of other's work and their mod is in Russian. I could wear the helmet of Captain Obvious for two seconds and say that Russian is not the most understood and spoken language, it is of course English and the most popular platform for promoting TW games and their mods is the one you guys are logged on right now and if they try one day to promote this mod in TWC, count me in for not allowing this shameful project be on and promoted. And I must thank this fellow member of creating this thread and report this topic, I wasn't surprised about it but at least I know who's involved.

Best regards.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

They can do their "supermod" as they wish but honestly, this mod will be secluded and not really appreciated due to their behaviors about permission/use of other's work and their mod is in Russian. I could wear the helmet of Captain Obvious for two seconds and say that Russian is not the most understood and spoken language, it is of course English and the most popular platform for promoting TW games and their mods is the one you guys are logged on right now and if they try one day to promote this mod in TWC, count me in for not allowing this shameful project be on and promoted. And I must thank this fellow member of creating this thread and report this topic, I wasn't surprised about it but at least I know who's involved.

Best regards.

Im sorry for breaking this to you, but i know for a fact that russians often make "their" (in this case not really their own) stuff in russian for the point that only they can use it, they dont want english speaking communities around them too much.

Or another possibility is that they just realised that they cannot add(steal) all of the things they want and operate in twc because the sub forum for this mod could be taken down due to the stolen content from other mods, thats why they have moved off to this forum.

Also there is the language, they made this mod in russian, i dont know if you could host a russian only mod here when english is the primary launguage.

[Radboud]

To sum it up it is very improper to take stuff from someone elses mod without permission (not even crediting the original creator(s), whether you make your mod in Russian or not.

It is a very serious offence imo. This is exactly why modders like KK are very strict on using their content.

[k/t]

Regardless of how anyone feels about this issue, unless you go to Russia and assassinate the modders, there is no way to stop them, so why don't we make the best of a bad situation and peruse their mod for anything that we could jack and incorporate into SS in order to improve it?

It's sort of an involuntary cooperation. When you capture technology from the enemy, you use it.

[Ichon]

Regardless of how anyone feels about this issue, unless you go to Russia and assassinate the modders, there is no way to stop them, so why don't we make the best of a bad situation and peruse their mod for anything that we could jack and incorporate into SS in order to improve it?

It's sort of an involuntary cooperation. When you capture technology from the enemy, you use it.

Problem with that is how do we know whose work it is originally? If they used textures and animation work from 2 different people and just changed colors and banners then 2nd hand our borrowing would be the same problem. I did not notice WofW included as that is an obvious problem when it hasn't even been released publicly though I do wonder how they got the content, I guess that is something for Poly and TWC to deal with.

[Fedual]

I did not notice WofW included as that is an obvious problem when it hasn't even been released publicly though I do wonder how they got the content, I guess that is something for Poly and TWC to deal with.

They got it from WotW´s open demo, I myself use some of their models in my SS but i dont share it

ultimately, nobody who mods can own (legally) their work.

Sounds shifty, so if i craft an English Knight, and give it animations and textures i dont own it? that is, once i put that knight in a mod for a game i dont own my work anymore? or, did i never own that knight that i spent hours and hours creating?

[Sanderlicious]

Sounds shifty, so if i craft an English Knight, and give it animations and textures i dont own it? that is, once i put that knight in a mod for a game i dont own my work anymore? or, did i never own that knight that i spent hours and hours creating?

Again, legally that is a definitive no. You don't own any part of the platform for which they were created or the means by which they were created. The artwork might have some credence if you did that all yourself, but you'd still have to prove it and get it a patent etc. etc.

Theoretically, however, that is a different story. You did put labor into that creation, and would then naturally, if you believe Lockean economic theory, have created something of value and should be your property. There is some nuance being that you don't own any part of its creation or use, which would suggest maybe a more Marxist theory that you really can't own it - you needed the work and products of others to make it happen. However, either way you look at it, you created something for the benefit of the public and not for your own enterprise. You may requests that certain restrictions be placed on your work, which is fair, but because it is public these requests are ultimately unenforceable (outside TWC that is). With this knowledge, all modders should be forewarned and perhaps be willing to allow their work to be completely public - that is, without the necessity of any monetary reward (and we all know a mod should not be profitable), but also without any reward to one's vanity or ego.

Really, the ownership of modded is only enforced by common decency.

More of something to think about than anything else.

[Polycarpe]

I wish to share a translation made by my comrade Wille about their own ToS

First and foremost, they are outside the realm of TWC and may do as they please from an offical TWC Terms of Service point of view. However, they too have laws regarding this specific act.

Original: ToS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

5. Перед тем как присоединить к сообщению файл или добавить ссылку, убедитесь, что файл не содержит вирусы, трояны, другие вредоносные программы, а страница - информацию и документы, на которые распространяется Закон о защите авторских прав и т.п. Всевозможная рассылка спама (например: «писем счастья», рекламы, просьб помочь финансово и т.п.) также запрещена.
Не выполнение требований Правила, в зависимости от наличия/отсутствия умысла, наказывается «Холодной» (временным блокированием аккаунта) или изгнанием «У Стэп».

[...]

19. Поиск, распространение или призыв к распространению материалов, нарушающих законодательство в области авторского права и интеллектуальной собственности классифицируются и регулируются в соответствии с украинским/российским/ законодательством.

20. Права на все материалы, опубликованные на Форуме СiЧъ, принадлежат Администрации СiЧъ. Любой материал, размещенный на нашем Форуме, не разрешается копировать, перепечатывать или воспроизводить любым другим способом.

http://empiretw.ru/board/index.php?showtopic=64

Translated ToS

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

5. Before you attach a file, or a link, make sure the file does not contain any viruses, Trojan horses, and other malicious software, and page - information and documents to which the law of copyright, etc. All sorts of sending spam (eg "chain letters", advertising, requests to help financially, etc.) is also prohibited.
Failure to follow the rules, depending on the presence / absence of intent, shall be punished by "cold" (temporary blocking your account) or expulsion "The STEP".

[...]

19. Search, distribution or dissemination of materials called for violating the legislation on copyright and intellectual property are classified and regulated in accordance with the Ukrainian / Russian / legislation.

20. Rights to all material published on the Forum SiCh (this russian forum) belong Administration SiCh. Any material posted on our forum, do not be copied, reprinted or reproduced in any way.

I think that that is an interesting bit of information. Their own site Administrator owns and thus takes full responsibility for all content on it, by all mods including Damaskus Steel. He acknowledge the terns such as intellectual property and copyright. He also makes it clear that such behavior as Damaskus Steel is doing is forbidden.

~Wille

Seems we can agreed that even if they are making this mod for specifically for the Russians, the intellectual property and copyrights still applies , anywhere and everywhere. They may asked permission for certain mods but there are others (which include WotW) that never give permission or being asked permission, hense being an infraction to not only to TWC's ToS but also their own ToS.

[Sanderlicious]

Regardless of how anyone feels about this issue, unless you go to Russia and assassinate the modders, there is no way to stop them

This is more or less my sentiment.

I think most of us would agree that taking the work of others for your own purposes without permission is unethical, but ultimately, nobody who mods can own (legally) their work. Yes, we would like for everyone to have the decency and respect to politely ask permission, but their is nothing forcing them to do so but the conventions of societal ethics.

Mods are, by their nature, products of and subject to the public realm. The only private, legal rights to regulate the existence, distribution, and use of mods is the owner of the original work upon which they are based; although, we can all agree that doing so is dickish.

But look, we could argue the ethical standing of their mod all day long. We can agree that what they are doing is wrong and should be reconciled. However, their project is beyond the power of TWC to do anything about it, obviously. The most anyone can do is ask politely for them to cut it out, argue with them if they disagree, whine about it, and/or sit here angry over it.

[popovic]

As I already stated: Good mod>Somebody`s ego.
Cause that what all this is about. No one is going to make money off these mods anyway. So why just not give permission for anyone to use your work if it can help in creation of mods that will make a lot of the players happy?
I know that guy from Broken Crescent did it, and he probably did more for the development of M2TW mods, than any other member of this community. Just because he was generous, and not an egoist.

[GrnEyedDvl]

Ok guys lets all calm down a bit. I have a few things to say here.

1. I need a definitive answer from the mod teams involved: Did you give permission to use your stuff in their mods?

2. Any of you who suggest stealing their work and then incorporating it into something you release on TWC, run the risk of having that mod banned from TWC if they complain about it. Even if they are going to allow it, TWC is not.

3. If you have NOT given permission, then you need to contact the administrators of that site and notify them. If the admins on that site refuse to remove the content, then let me know and I will contact them myself.

We have a banner sharing campaign with that site, their banner is on our front page and is allowed to be used in signatures on our site. If they are going to allow this kind of behavior, then I will revoke the banner sharing and run a query on signatures and remove all sigs that link to that site.

Furthermore any mod threads that point to that site will be subject to removal. Mod teams on that site who promote their mod here will be offered a chance to move their mods to TWC before I remove their links, as long as they are not participating in the same kind of behavior.

Mod leaders, feel free to PM me or any member of Hex on this issue.

[Sanderlicious]

Well that was kinda badass...

[stoogeofstooges]

So, just for the record and since I don't understand any Russian, do they actually have a download link on the site for the latest version of the mod? I'm kind of curious to see what they did with Dome's Magyar Mod models and textures. I mean, if they're combining the best of the best it should look pretty decent.

While I don't support their actions, I'd honestly just like to see what they came up with. Even some kind of screenshot thread or unit preview would do, I just can't read Russian.

[stoogeofstooges]

Just looked at some of the screenshots of the byzantine unit selection menu, and judging by the unit cards they completely ripped off Caudillo87's Komnenian/Khwaraz Unit Roster. I don't know if he gave them permission or not, and I can't tell if the actual units are like that, but the unit cards definitely depict the units from his pack as well as the two-handed byzantine spearmen made by some other guy whose name I forget.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

I was recently looking around the site myself, here is a list of the mods they used elements from(im sure there are more, but they arent as important or just arent mentioned i think:

В Булатной стали фигурируют элементы из таких модов:
"Русичи:TW", "Русь2", "Ренессанс: TW", "The Third Age: Total War", "Warhammer: TW"
"Magyar Mod", "RTJ 4", "The Last Kingdom", "Bellum Crucis", 'War of the West", "Lithuania mod - Baltic Crusades", "Battle for the Baltic", "Broken Crescent",
"Komnenian roman and khwarazmian units"
- описания этих модов, самих авторов, и их команды, легко разыскать в сети, или на Січи, или на TW-центре.

Here is my translation:

Bulat Steel uses some elements from these mods:

"Rusichi:Tw(a mod they made themselves)", "Rus2(again their made)", Rennesance: TW(again probably their made)", "The Third Age: Total War", "Warhammer: TW", "Magyar Mod", "RTJ 4", "The Last Kingdom", "Bellum Crucis", 'War of the West", "Lithuania mod - Baltic Crusades", "Battle for the Baltic", "Broken Crescent","Komnenian roman and khwarazmian units"
- Info about these mods and thir makers can be easily found by searching, on Sich website or TWC.


I am afaraid that it might be in russian only, so you probably wont able to play it that much, still you can probably just figure out yourself what is what because you know the game in english and remember most of the basics. I am thinking about installing it myself, but it may mess up the game because its in english and the mod might need russian to work.

Anyway, it could probably easily be translated back to english, the game is mostly esthetic upgrades, so the text in russian could be easily just over copy paster by english text. Some rebalancing for units might be needed to as i remember seeing some russian boyars having like 30 defense and about 10+ attack, must be product of that national pride

Oh yeah and an extra note: i remember somewhere it was said that the Komnenian/Khwaraz roster used some of the unit skins THEY had made as a base, which is really interesting

[stoogeofstooges]

HOLY I found the screenshot thread, and , they've created some kind of hybrid mod. I mean, the amount of merging and combining of units and mods is insane!

http://empiretw.ru/board/index.php?showtopic=36051

Just click on the ink-seal looking things in the posts to see the images. Like, holy guys.

EDIT: So apparently to download you need to put your cell number in the box and then it will let you create an account to download the stuff from the russian site.

Not doing it.

[k/t]

Give a fake number.

""Rusichi:Tw(a mod they made themselves)", "Rus2(again their made)""

Who's "they"? I think they mean "other Russians", not the Bulat Steel "modders".