Unit size vs reality

[JaM]

Can anybody tell me what is the scale in EB? Per some historical data, Roman Polybian Legion had 4800 men, where 1200 were light Velites, and 3000 were Heavy Infantry (Hastati,Principes,Triarii). In EB Velites have 240 men, so if I assume its equivalent to 1200, then Heavy infantry units composing Legion should have 600men in game. Right now one unit has 160 men, so together there is 480 men. Shouldn't they have instead 200 men per unit (to have single unit of each type per legion)? Plus, Triarii were just half of the size of other two, therefore Hastati and Principes should have 240, while Triarii 120men in game. It also means that 300men strong Equites should be just 50 men strong in EB.

This is just a scale, so if you increase number of Hastati units, you also need to increase others as well to get to proper scale..

Can anybody share more light what scale EB is using? Personally, i always play historically, so i'm not abusing more effective units and use the whole variety of units. This way you actually see the huge difference as time flows - while with Camillan reforms, Legion is composed mostly of lightly armored units, which changes dramatically with Polybian reforms, with more heavy units per legion, and another dramatical change with Marian reform, where legion is composed of heavy infantry only. (with same scale used, Marian Legion should have 1000men in game, which means 5 units - 240men for first cohort and 4 standard cohorts) which gives oportunity to use 3 legions per army and some auxilia.

[Mirionis9]

The unit sizes seem to be irrelevant. I approve your mod efforts. Change everything!!!

[JaM]

you know, its all about used scale, thats the reason why i'm asking what scale is EB build on. I'm considering using 1:5 scale in my submod.

[Boriak]

I remember a similar thread where it was said that each Roman century had 100 men, 20 of those were non-combatants. This makes sense as all Roman units have 80 fighting men.

[The Kybrothilian]

Since the Post-Marian legionary cohorts are 200 in huge size, and the RL size was 500, I think the size comparison is 1:2,5 when in huge.

[JaM]

yes, but assuming we are playing with whole armies and not single Legions, It could be extrapolated into less units per legion, therefore within one 20 unit stack you could have more "legions" if they are represented by less units. Of course it make it more difficult to use actual tactics, as its not possible to place single unit into quicunx formation, for that you need at least 5 (3/2) or 6 (3/2/1), but its much better with full 20 units.. Its all about gameplay preference, personally i like smaller battles more, most of the time I autoresolve every huge battle even if I lose.

[The Kybrothilian]

Or you could just have multiple stacks to represent whole armies.

[JaM]

Yes you could, but again - you wont be able to "command " them on the battlefield due to engine limitation.

[The Kybrothilian]

Yes, but you don't need to deploy them all on the same battlefield very often, since you don't run to a pile of AI stacks close to each other most of the time. The enemy doesn't usually deploy large concentrations of troops into one place, so you don't need to do it either.

[JaM]

yes, nad that is another reason why go with that extrapolation - Ancient battles were battles between armies, Roman legion only seldomly operated alone. Personally i like to play battles with less units, as its easier to control and easier to make maneuvers. I also prefer playing historically, so i restrict myself to real historical expansion (as mentioned here: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...-(Redux-for-EB) ) but i dont play with force diplomacy.

[Ballpoint202]

I believe the scale is about 10 to 1 on huge, so a full-stack army has about 30,000 to 40,000 men and a city with 20,000 population represents a region with 200,000 military-eligible male inhabitants. The Camillian unit sizes should probably be a little different, with 120 men in each unit of Velites, Hastati and Principes, and 60 in each unit of Triarii and cavalry.

Anyway, I think 10 to 1 works really well. One of my problems with Roma Surrectum is the scale of about 2 to 1, which means you have a separate stack for each legion and its supporting units; and since only one stack can be on the battlefield at a time, the apparently random timing of battlefield reinforcements seems to decide all large multi-stack battles. It is nearly unplayable, IMO.

[JaM]

i think 1:10 is too much, personally like more 1:4 which still allows you to have 2 legions in one stack together with several auxilia units.. I have altered my files to better represent that scale, so with Camillan units i have 2x120men Hastati, 2x120men Principes, 1x120men Triarii,1x120men Rotarii,1x120men Ancessi ,1x200men Leves and 1x50men Equites(9units per legion).

With Polybian reforms this changes to 2x160men Hastati,2x160men Principes,1x160men Triarii,2x160men Velites and 1x50men Equites (8units per legion).

Marius reforms changes that to 1x240men 1stCohort,1x120men Antesignani 3x200men Cohort Reformata and 1x200men Cohort Evocata. (6units per legion).
( of course some numbers are not exact 1:4,but it is as close as it could be without impacting balance.)

So with Marius reforms you can have 3 legions in one stack and general, or 2 and full contingent of auxilia ( i normally use at least 4 infantry auxilia/mercenary units)

[Entropy Judge]

I don't think there's an explicit "Unit Size X correlates to Y Soldiers in reality." I mean, you could possibly make a correlation with the civilized units that we know the size of the units involved (for example, you could claim that the Carthaginian Sacred Band Infantry corresponds to Z Percentage of the total SB force), but once you get into the barbarian factions, where a "unit" represents a "warband" of potentially wildly-varying size, you really just have to throw up your hands and say "I'm going to make this unit this size because that's the unit size CA made the game with."