On experience...

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Something that has bugged me in Total War games (And Kinjo will agree) is the experience system.

The problem I see with it, is it is so abstract that is doesn't differentiate between experience, and training. So you'll have veteran recruits, which makes no sense.


So, I propose a new system. I think experience should stay, more or less, how it is right now. No need to change what isn't broken. But new units should get no experience bonus. Instead, there should be a new value. Training. The higher the barracks, the better trained the units are. A higher level or training should lead to better morale, better attack and defence, and more cohesive formations. When you train the troops from the first level of barracks, they should be more like the milita in ETW or NTW. Their formation should be messy, and just less effective in general. As you build better barracks, their formation should become more and more disciplined. It should also add better formations (Such as Shieldwall, and such.) All this on top of the regular experience system.

I think civilizations such as Rome, or the Greek city states, etc. should start off better organised and trained than the barbarian factions. But barbarians should have an equal chance to become as disciplined as the Romans, if they get big and/or advanced enough.

It's not perfect, of course, but I still think it's better than the current system where training and experience are largly the same.

[spanish_emperor]

I hated the fact that experience gives you an attack and defense bonus. Unnecessary in my opinion.

Experience should provide a morale and accuracy boost (for ranged units) and provide a morale boost for nearby friendly units and morale drop for nearby enemy units. Plus they should form formations much faster than other units.

The idea that some newly recruited units would start with experience should be dropped entirely.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I hated the fact that experience gives you an attack and defense bonus. Unnecessary in my opinion.

I don't know. It makes sense to me. A unit of combat veterans would be more comfortable with their weapons and shields, and better able to handle themselves in a melee.

[ngr]

I like your idea. I hate new recruits being overexperienced. Besides being unrealistic it provokes me to wait long time to build better army. And even to disband my veterans to replace them with more experienced units.

[daelin4]

If RTW was based in real life, then every heavy infantry you train prior to Marian reforms would be Hastati. Well actually, you'd train Hastati from a pool of the poorest able-bodied men. Principes are merely those richer men that could afford better equipment, and thus put into that role accordingly, so you either train Principes from a pool of richer men, or Hastati by means of acquiring wealth can be "promoted" to Principes and beyond.

[Shaio]

Yeah the fact that one ends up disbanding veteran units to replace them with newly trained units because they have more experience seems broken.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Why not add something radical like each created unit have a life time ?

This ensures constant fresh units even hundred turns into the campaign.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Why not add something radical like each created unit have a life time ?

This ensures constant fresh units even hundred turns into the campaign.

Because that would be incredibly frustrating. It's hard enough to manage a dozen or so characters, knowing they're, technically, temporary. If every unit you ever bought would disappear after a certain amount of turns, then it would simply be too much micromanagement. Don't get me wrong, I love micromanagement, but... Man, I have limits.

[Anna_Gein]

Why not add something radical like each created unit have a life time ?

This ensures constant fresh units even hundred turns into the campaign.

I don't think that would work. The unit recruited are represented in a more abstract way for now. A militia unit isn't suppose to work the same way as a professional unit even if the engine don't show you it. That is the reason why militia in medieval 2 could have free upkeep as most of it soldier would remain free of duty and only call upon arms if you are attacked.

It would also be extremely difficult to balance such system to allow the player to always recruit his whole army will keeping or adding any importance to battle. The game could as well became even more a recruitment feast where the only "strategical" act is been able to recruit the greater number of unit within a few turn without any consideration for money or any other factor.

And like Top Hat Zebra said it would be extremely frustrating after a few times. I like micromanagement too but this looks more like repeating the same action over and over again for limited difference.

The idea of adding a new value seems the most simple and logical to do. It is also the one who make more sense. We could introduce few difference between experience and training. So experienced unit would gain better combat statistic while training would provide better better trait like don't charge without order or resist moral shock. The two could provide better ability to move and formation but maybe again with some difference.

What's to micro manage ? It's gonna be something like, 'now you see it, now you don't'.

With this 'legion' record that they're talking about there can be some pop up nearing the legion service time, say 1 or 2 years prior to disbandment.

For non Roman factions that don't have regular standing army then the army can be raised for a short time, with triggers includes proximity of non-allied/enemy armies within striking range of your border. Then the options to raise army be available with the army having limited 'turn life' and will be automatically disbanded after several turns if there's no more threat.

OK didn't seen your post before posting. Now that makes sense. I even like the idea but it would be difficult to keep the gained experience of previously disband troops still able to be used. With or without this feature I think it makes more sense to have distinct experience and training even if it is just cosmetic.

[atheniandp]

Why not add something radical like each created unit have a life time ?

This ensures constant fresh units even hundred turns into the campaign.

Good idea. Retraining options could be automated or manual. It would be nice to see retirement, name and age lists for individual soldiers if possible. We used to have name lists for unit captains in the original Shogun and Medieval games.

In this way units would no longer be eternal veterans. Likewise, the new legion system could instead have a reputation or prestige ranking that would compensate for this loss. A reputable army may not consist of the best individual soldiers, but would attract skillful commanders and form a more cohesive fighting force.

This could also bring up a whole new slew of demographic concerns. If armies are overwhelmingly consisted of older adults, the player may have to invest in particular social programs. Say, the rape of the Sabine women.

[AngryTitusPullo]

What's to micro manage ? It's gonna be something like, 'now you see it, now you don't'.

With this 'legion' record that they're talking about there can be some pop up nearing the legion service time, say 1 or 2 years prior to disbandment.

For non Roman factions that don't have regular standing army then the army can be raised for a short time, with triggers includes proximity of non-allied/enemy armies within striking range of your border. Then the options to raise army be available with the army having limited 'turn life' and will be automatically disbanded after several turns if there's no more threat.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

What's to micro manage ? It's gonna be something like, 'now you see it, now you don't'.

With this 'legion' record that they're talking about there can be some pop up nearing the legion service time, say 1 or 2 years prior to disbandment.

For non Roman factions that don't have regular standing army then the army can be raised for a short time, with triggers includes proximity of non-allied/enemy armies within striking range of your border. Then the options to raise army be available with the army having limited 'turn life' and will be automatically disbanded after several turns if there's no more threat.

But why? What would that add to the gameplay? I would simply have to purchase them again and again, over and over and over. It just seems like it would be taking control away from the player for no reason at all.

[SturmChurro]

But why? What would that add to the gameplay? I would simply have to purchase them again and again, over and over and over. It just seems like it would be taking control away from the player for no reason at all.

I agree it would get to be too much of a hassle. I would forget about armies until it was too late. Not to mention when I did remember I would be spending all this time doing menial tasks, this game would get boring and frustrating.

I don't think how units become veterans should be changed. I think CA still has a good system in place, but the way units got experience in SHOGUN 2, in my opinion, was way to easy. I think getting experience should be a bit harder than it already is.

[Ultra123]

id much prefer a 'promotion' route, where for example as rome you can recruit only hastati velites and equites with a few principes and triarii given to you in senate missions and from the start of the game, then when those hastati gain more experience you can 'promote' them into a new unit ie principes, or instead of a promotion slightly more moral and a 'special' stat such as bonus in woodlands or some such. this could be rollled out acrross all units. another example, Spartiate youth hoplites can be 'promoted' eventually to Spartan elite hoplites. just a example. i think this would work much better

[Ichon]

id much prefer a 'promotion' route, where for example as rome you can recruit only hastati velites and equites with a few principes and triarii given to you in senate missions and from the start of the game, then when those hastati gain more experience you can 'promote' them into a new unit ie principes, or instead of a promotion slightly more moral and a 'special' stat such as bonus in woodlands or some such. this could be rollled out acrross all units. another example, Spartiate youth hoplites can be 'promoted' eventually to Spartan elite hoplites. just a example. i think this would work much better

This way while not perfect probably makes the most sense. Hastati were young men and sometimes would remain poor even when older but often gained wealth with age so promoting to principes and finally triarii makes some sense. Many other cultures as well had similar path. If the amount of elite units were capped based on amount of barracks or cultural regions under control that would be even better. Any society can only have a few rich as that is a relative term but by getting larger/wealthier/more infrastructure city or more territory there can be a larger amount of men in the 'rich' class who would be capable of fighting with better equipment etc. Then if max cap is not reached there is a choice to keep as hastati and pay less upkeep or maybe you want to wait so a hastati in another legion can get the next promotion. Then gaining xp has a more permanent advantage. So perhaps 3 xp give chance to promote to the next level which starts the unit at 0 xp but its a new unit so morale, melee, etc are already higher. If 3 xp were the max per level but combined with Legion traits/bonus and generals traits/bonus there would still be alot of bonus going around. This way also the loss of an entire legion would mean something. If there are many other veteran legions around the ranks of triari and principes might be easily refilled but if there is only 1 other legion... it might take awhile to gain the xp to promote new higher rank units.

[General Maximus]

I agree with OP.

It was not so funny seeing barbarians scattered around like spilled beans. I think that they should become more and more organized and with better formation. They should begin to form lines when given better training, even the poorest of soldiers in ETW and NTW formed a close but undisciplined lines.

Remember, shield-wall formation was successful only because of a proper shield-locked line.

And experience should increase morale and accuracy, a little bonus to defense and attack but not much. There is a norm we have seen in every TW game:

Peasant Unit A: "We have seen more killing and bloodshed, kiddies, so just run along. You cannot match our experience. We may be in smaller numbers, but we can kill more out of anyone, and can prevent ourselves better from being killed."

Peasant Unit B: "Yeah, you may be knowing better how to swing a sword, but you cannot match our numbers! And this is our first battle by the way, our lord just forced us out of the farms two days ago."

Result? Peasant A routs away, because although it caused many casualties among the enemy, it could not hold against two units of same peasants and ran away because it has the same poor level of morale that a completely inexperienced peasant has.

[Cyclops]

Unit experience that persists over several centuries is broken.

[SturmChurro]

Unit experience that persists over several centuries is broken.

Then do what Empire did. As troops died and were replaced in a unit the whole units experience wen't down a little, if I remember correctly.

[Ultra123]

Unit experience that persists over several centuries is broken.

that is a gameplay problem, it is dull to gain say 3 gold chevrons on a unit only in ten turns (note 'turns' not years - this is a player i am talking about not real life) to have them all disappear, it would be dull and boring.

Then do what Empire did. As troops died and were replaced in a unit the whole units experience wen't down a little, if I remember correctly

this was done already in all previous games to empire, merging or retraining units in med2 and rome 1 resulted in a drop in overall exp.

[TheDamned]

Also the visuals!!! How about having Veteran Units look like they have fought for ages,bearded strong men with worn tunics deep cuts in shields marching in another battle once more? Now with the fresh recruits they should be more like "out of the factory" style with fine clothes,shiny weapons,younger more inexperienced in the field of battle not like their older experienced battle brothers!! What do you think about that? It will add a fine visual detail in the game.