NATO restricts operations with ANA, cast deep doubt of future between ISAF and ANA

[hellheaven1987]

So is it Taliban's strategy to pull ANA as far from NATO as possible?

Nato says it is restricting operations with Afghan troops following a string of deadly attacks on its personnel by rogue Afghan security forces.

Only large operations will now be conducted jointly, with joint patrols evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

This is a major step back for Nato's strategy, says the BBC's Quentin Sommerville in Kabul.

It comes as a suicide bomber targeted a bus carrying foreigners in the capital, killing 12 people on Tuesday morning.

The attack happened on a major road leading to the international airport and reports suggest those on board worked at the airport.

Afghan insurgent group Hezb-e-Islami has claimed responsibility for the blast, which it says was in response to a recent anti-Islam video.

Meanwhile Nato-led Isaf forces said they had arrested a Taliban leader and two insurgents they said were involved in an attack on the sprawling Camp Bastion in southern Helmand province.

They said the leader was suspected of "providing support" to the militants who staged the audacious assault, killing two US marines and destroying six Harrier fighter jets.

Source

Whatever it is Taliban's plan or not, I wonder what effect it would be with such restrictions be imposed? Would ANA feel they are distrusted by NATO and results even more green-on-blue attacks? Or would ANA cooperate with Taliban now since NATO is not watching them that closely?

[mrmouth]

Got to ween them off the tit at some point. Maybe the earlier the better.

[Imperial]

^^This.

It was gonna happen sooner or later. Maybe a good test to see how the ANA can work on their own.

[Azog 150]

^^^But the reasoning given for the decision is a big propaganda victory for the Taliban. To most people this doesn't sound like 'we are giving control over to Afghans because we believe they are ready and fully capable', but rather 'we are refusing to go on patrol with the Afghans because the Taliban have us our pants over Green-on-Blue killings'.

Anyway, the British Defence Secretary has announced that this decision will make no difference: British troops will continue patrolling alongside their Afghan counterparts as normal. The only thing that will change is the need to acquire a higher level of authorisation to do so. So basically just more paper work....





http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...tics-live-blog

The Whitehall defence establishment has been in full damage-limitation mode this morning. We've had William Hague, General Sir David Richards, the Ministry of Defence and Isaf all delivering statements playing down the implication of the decision to curb joint combat operations in Afghanistan. And Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, performed the final act of rebuttal when he answered an urgent question on the matter in the Commons an hour ago. Generally, he was quite plausible. He said that the Isaf decision would make no practical difference to what the British did. He said that they patrolled jointly with the Afghans, that they would carry on doing so, and that the only thing that would change was that they would need to obtain a different level of authorisation. He also said this was just a routine security measure – so routine that he had failed to notice the significance of it when he was told about it on Monday.

[Captain Jin]

Anyway, the British Defence Secretary has announced that this decision will make no difference: British troops will continue patrolling alongside their Afghan counterparts as normal. The only thing that will change is the need to acquire a higher level of authorisation to do so. So basically just more paper work....

The issue isn't patrolling with them. You wouldn't get a turncoat to show his colors when you're all kitted up armed and ready for him cause he's not going to get max value out of his attack. The issue is the unlimited access that the ing Afghans have to our FOB and COPs. In Iraq it was very stringent where Iraqis were allowed to go inside our firm bases and they had their own separate bases for the most part; albeit right next to ours. However, Afghans are horrendously easy to offend so for whatever reason we've basically bent over and opened ourselves up for this kind of thing since the get go. I don't know why, but I'm guessing it's because this is a NATO led mission rather than American. In Iraq interpreters weren't even ALLOWED to use internet or phones while assigned to us if they were local Iraqis for the sake of OPSEC. Meanwhile in Afghanistan the local terps spend more time on the internet than the ISAF forces do and have their own god damn cell phones that they bring on major operations. We saw our terp with one and took it away from him out of suspicion. Still, others out there had their's and low and behold the night we were going to extract we were heading to our extract site and we pick up Taliban ICOM saying "We think the Marines are leaving on helicopters tonight". How the did they know that ? Who knows, but they fired at the second wave of helicopters while we were extracting in the middle of the night.

Cultural sensitivities and such have gone to a new, ridiculous extreme in Afghanistan. I always loved getting into an argument with the ANA up in the Musa Qaleh district center because they weren't allowed to go through our burn pit where we throw trash, but guess what? They were out there all the time and when I saw SOG I had to go out there and get them out. Fun in a culture where arguments can frequently lead to bloodshed. And as for dedicated Muslims, well that was peculiar too. Muslims in general that I've encountered overseas are perhaps the most defensive about their faith. You'll have ones that don't follow it very closely, or that even disobey some of the tenets (such as us catching Afghan troops eating food out of our trash during Ramadan) but as soon as you bring up the religion they get incredibly defensive. Sort of absurd really.

[s.rwitt]

So is it Taliban's strategy to pull ANA as far from NATO as possible?

And I suppose this just occurred to you...

[magpie]

Politicians are a shifty lot when it comes to playing with peoples lives,
I am sure the soldier,s families will be happy to know that everything is rosy in the garden and its only a question of procedure.
What the men and woman at the sharp end feel about these cosy statement,s is maybe another matter.
Having to face combat situations with loyal allies who are likely to shoot you in the back cannot do much for their trust and morale.
Combat strain with mines and other nasty surprises plus firefights with the enemy is probably enough to deal with.

[snuggans]

are NATO soldiers going to have to ask themselves if the ANA soldier next to him is going to become hostile/resentful towards them every time somebody draws or makes a dumb video about Mohammad? obviously there isn't a massive amount of knee-jerk reactions like this going on within the Afghan security forces but the paranoia is understandable given the situation and what's at stake. no amount of background checks or personal familiarity with the ANA soldiers is going to prevent the importance that their religion has over their choices. along with all the protests and the death of an ambassador, this gives much strength to the concept of the film's author being a major security risk.

[Imperial]

no amount of background checks

You can't even do background checks. It's not like these people are born with birth certificates.

[snuggans]

You can't even do background checks. It's not like these people are born with birth certificates.

surely they must go through some sort of process before being given a gun and a uniform?

[hellheaven1987]

surely they must go through some sort of process before being given a gun and a uniform?

May be asked a tribal elder whether this dude is real or not, and too bad the tribal elder is pro-Taliban too.

[YukonTrooper]

surely they must go through some sort of process before being given a gun and a uniform?

Sure. But when you're trying to build a security force as large as possible, the vetting process inevitably becomes weaker.

[s.rwitt]

You can't even do background checks. It's not like these people are born with birth certificates.

I don't know how the process works for those joining the ANP/ANA, but I do know that our interpreters are given lie detector tests when they join and every time they come back from a vacation. I see no reason why this can't be applied to the ANA as well.

[Holger Danske]

this gives much strength to the concept of the film's author being a major security risk.

I love how utter crap like this amounts to giving Islam special privilages. Screw them, they're no better than any of the other religions!.. and as dumb as that movie may be (...the reactions to it, kinda confirms it's view on Islam, lol) it should not result in western culture suddenly making it a security risk to say your honest opinion about a certain religion (cough#islam#cough), no matter how crappy that opinion may be. The only possitive thing I can see here is that there might be a chance that the so-called moderate muslims wont go completely ape this time due to the experiences with Jyllands Posten's infamous drawings years ago... At least this time I've heard muslims say that while they certainly don't like that movie (derp) they think the violent reactions are equally stupid...


Then again, muslims have proven to be the easiest group to troll in history...

[Admiral Piett]

Guess it's all they have in that hellhole.

[Adar]

Captain Jins description kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with an ethnic Chinese guy from Malaysia. He described the dangers regarding leading workforces from different ethnicities in South East Asia. And some groups really seem to be inclined to kill you even for the slightest offense.

But Jin I got one question. Are the new rules similar to the regulations in Iraq or have NATO gone from one extreme to another?

[Captain Jin]

Captain Jins description kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with an ethnic Chinese guy from Malaysia. He described the dangers regarding leading workforces from different ethnicities in South East Asia. And some groups really seem to be inclined to kill you even for the slightest offense.

But Jin I got one question. Are the new rules similar to the regulations in Iraq or have NATO gone from one extreme to another?

Well they changed some of the rules. For instance, at the Musa Qaleh district center if you were an Afghan police officer you weren't allowed on the Marine side period, unless you had an escort. ANA could come on our side of the camp, but weren't allowed to carry weapons. Before all the green on blue stuff increased we had three suicide bombers dressed in Afghan uniforms get in on the Afghan side of the District Center with suppressed weapons where they proceeded into the police building to get their target, Commander Koka. They detonated their suicide vests too soon and only managed to severely wound him, but it was sort of a precursor to some of the attacks that have been going on as of late.

In another COP I was at the ETT team there got into a row with the ANA because they wanted to give them a class on BZOing their weapons. ANA said "We know how we don't need a class". So with the interest of improving their training techniques the ETT team said "Ok, good. Then pick a few guys and have them give US the class." The Afghans thought they were being mocked and threatened the ETT. After that there was a lot of tension between my Company and the ANA Tolay there at the COP and the ETT stopped working with them. At that point we were basically told "Hey, watch for any suspicious activity from their side of the camp and if they come over here just be leery". This, again, was before the rise in green on blue, but that something we were always aware of because of how easily the Taliban was able to get a hold of ANA and in some cases ISAF uniforms. Police were heavily restricted when it came to getting on our COP even; they needed a special badge with a picture on it OR another method I won't discuss. Nevertheless, there was still an AUP post smack right in the center of the COP and we had issues with that at times.

Keep in mind Afghan uniforms are easy to come by. There were times when entire police teams of six-eight got wiped out by the Taliban in which case the Talibs took uniforms and weapons (which they later used on my squad, nothing like seeing red tracers open up on you). In one case we found a cache of IED and IED making materials as well as weapons and uniforms. There were British Army and US Army uniforms in the cache alongside ANA ones.

Now I left literally the night before those 15 guys got into Bastion so I don't know what precautions they've taken but in the grand scheme of things they probably aren't that significant.

[s.rwitt]

Yeah, the ANP weren't allowed on any part of Delaram II while the ANA ran in and out at will. Weird.

[I WUB PUGS]

The ANA training camp barracks on Leatherneck is 100 feet away from half of all communications assets at the disposal of NATO forces on the base. The other half can be seen for miles because it has a giant tower with flashing red lights on top in the middle of the compound.

I am slightly exaggerating and there are some other assets that won't make the whole base deaf/blind, but really. We trust the Afghans with too much knowledge.

They have free roam of most bases and only pad locks, maybe an ECP or chain link fence separate them from sensitive areas and unarmed personnel.

[mrmouth]

I imagine some of it has to do with the nature of the war in its infancy. I mean we slept in northern alliance compounds and homes at times. There was never the compartmentalization that existed in Iraq. And the mentoring angle wasn't going to allow for it.

And then the CIVCAS issue gave Karzai a soapbox to negotiate from and he pushed through all manner of ridiculous that made the ANA even more joined at the hip to our people, beyond simply training them.

You know there was some clown who thought that berthing two hugely different groups of human beings in the same general area (armed no less), was a good idea.

It's mentoring a conventional army. Not living among the hill people in the 'nam.