The Bible and the Quran

[SuperTechmarine]

72 virgins really was originally supposed to mean 72 sweet white grapes or raisins, it was meant to be food being offered.

lol no, unlike you Holy Bible, the Quran stayed the same for 1400 years. The Bible was modified to fit the Church's need for Crusades.

[Enzo]

lol no, unlike you Holy Bible, the Quran stayed the same for 1400 years. The Bible was modified to fit the Church's need for Crusades.

lol yes look at this.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread211640/pg1

Grapes is what you will get.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Crusades didn't happen until 700 years after the Bible was compiled and around 300 years before the birth of Mohammed so there can't have been any agenda there, unless they could see into the future. I don't think the Book of Revelation covered it either.

[SuperTechmarine]

lol yes look at this.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread211640/pg1

The Crusades didn't happen until 700 years after the Bible was compiled and around 300 years before the birth of Mohammed so there can't have been any agenda there, unless they could see into the future. I don't think the Book of Revelation covered it either.

I smell contadiction.

The Bible was compiled in 300AD-ish

Muhammad was born in 600AD-ish

that would mean the Crusades happened in 1000AD, you're welcome.

Grapes? I refuse to believe you.

Qur'an

The houri are mentioned in several places in the Qur’an, although in plural no specifics are given as to the number of houries available. Likewise it does not appear from the Qur’an that only girls should be available; both sexes are mentioned (although their descriptive qualities are feminine, as alluded to, by the Hadiths). They are made available to all Muslims, not just martyrs.
"Thus shall it be. And We shall pair [zawajnahoom: pair them, marry them. Note zawj (lit., “a pair” or - according to the context - “one of a pair”) applies to either of the two sexes,a man to a woman and a woman to a man, as does the transitive verb zawaja, “he paired” or “joined”, i.e., one person with another][28]them with companions pure, most beautiful of eye."[Chapter (Surah) Ad-Dukhan (The Smoke)(44):54][29] "In these [gardens] will be mates of modest gaze [qasirat at-tarf: Lit., “such as restrain their gaze”, i.e., are of modest bearing and have eyes only for their mates (Tafsir Razi). This phrase applies to both genders.[4]], whom neither man nor invisible being will have touched ere then." [Chapter (Surah) Ar-Rahman (The Most Beneficent(55):56][30] "[There the blest will live with their] companions pure and modest, in pavilions [splendid] [Chapter (Surah) Ar-Rahman (The Most Beneficent)(55):72][31] "reclining on couches [of happiness] ranged in rows!” And [in that paradise] We shall mate them with companions pure, most beautiful of eye [Chapter (Surah) At-Tur (The Mount)(52):20][32]
Here are verses that refer to one’s spouse recreated in the hereafter:
"And [with them will be their] spouses, raised high: for, behold, We shall have brought them into being in a life renewed, having resurrected them as virgins [Chapter (Surah) Al-Waqi'a (The Event)(56):34-36][33] And among His wonders is this: He creates for you mates out of your own kind [min anfusikum azwajan, Lit. “from among yourselves mates (spouses, one of the pair)”] so that you might incline towards them, and He engenders love and tenderness between you: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think! ... And He it is who creates [all life] in the first instance, and then brings it forth anew: and most easy is this for Him, since His is the essence of all that is most sublime in the heavens and on earth, and He alone is almighty, truly wise. [Chapter (Surah) Ar-Rum (The Romans)(30):21...27][34]
There are also verses regarding both genders explicitly:
God has promised the believers, both men and women (Lit., waalmuminoona (male believers) waalmuminatu (female believers), gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual bliss: but God's goodly acceptance is the greatest [bliss of all] -for this, this is the triumph supreme! [Chapter (Surah) At-Taubah (The Repentance) (9):72][35] As for anyone - be it man or woman [Lit., min (from) thakarin (male) aw (or) ontha (female)][16:97] - who does righteous deeds, and is a believer withal - him shall We most certainly cause to live a good life, and most certainly shall We grant unto such as these their reward in accordance with the best that they ever did. [Chapter (Surah) An-Nahl (The Bee) (16):97][36]
A verse regarding other companionship:
“And, O our Sustainer, bring them into the gardens of perpetual bliss which Thou hast promised them, together with the righteous from among their forebears, and their spouses, and their offspring - for, verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise [Chapter (Surah) Ghafir (The Forgiver)(40):8][37]

OWNED

Oh, we can get whatever we want in heaven.

[Enzo]

I smell contadiction.

The Bible was compiled in 300AD-ish

Muhammad was born in 600AD-ish

that would mean the Crusades happened in 1000AD, you're welcome.

I know...that's what I told you. But 72 grapes is what you will be getting as there are some errors in there.

[SuperTechmarine]

I know...that's what I told you. But 72 grapes is what you will be getting as there are some errors in there.

You talking about the Bible or the Quran?

Im Muslim not Christian.

You'll get 72 grapes

I'll get 70 very hot virgins plus my wife.

You're very unlucky bro.

lol at the Atheists stalking our debate.

[Enzo]

You talking about the Bible or the Quran?

Im Muslim not Christian.

You'll get 72 grapes

I'll get 70 very hot virgins plus my wife.

You're very unlucky bro.

lol at the Atheists stalking our debate.

No you'll be having some grapes, or raisins whichever it is. The Quran was vulnerable to distortion and mistranslation as well as the Bible.

[SuperTechmarine]

Hey Kralle18, Can you move Enzo and my debate to a new thread in the Ethos, Mores et Monastica subforum? Thank you.

Like the Bible the Quran was compiled from all kinds of assorted bits many years after the founders death.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3tHzLvk_84

Last I'll say about this subject this isn't the religion board.

The Quran was compiled after Muhammad's death but it was written before his death.

The Bible was written and compiled 60 years after Jesus's "death", much of it was hearsay.

PS: Thank you Kralle18.

+rep

[basics]

" The Bible was written and compiled 60 years after Jesus's "death", much of it was hearsay."

SuperTechmarine,

I wish you guys would get your facts right before you all start spouting ridiculous comments. For a start the Bible began with the Old Testament which was written by Moses some 3/4,000 years ago and continued into what is now the New Testament addition which began to be written of just after Pentecost, some forty days after Jesus leaving for glory. For example if we take Jesus' death at around 33 A.D. then the writers must have been around one hundred years old when they put pen to paper and that is quite ridiculous.

That these men would leave telling of the wonderful works, death and resurrection for some 60 years of Jesus is downright stupidity if one actually knew anything about the nature of Jews. Of all the people on this planet they are the ultimate in spreading gossip and we are not far behind, so why, why would they wait all that time before writing of it? It may be that the writings we do have relate in age to them but that in no way confirms that they are the originals, why?

Because the ones we have are in Greek yet the Jews in and around the land of Israel spoke Aramaic as did Jesus himself and would have written in the same language to any other Jew. Now if that is not obvious then you don't know of the hatred that Jews had for Gentiles even in those times. And, since the churches grew around the synagogue as well as around the temple in Jerusalem, what Jew is it that would dare to transcend the Law by speaking in a hated tongue? They wouldn't even communicate with Gentiles unless it was absolutely necessary, business being one of these necessities.

So, from Pentecost onwards letters were being sent out to the new churches and some of these quite possibly are now in the Bible through the copies that were obviously made for the benefit of Gentile believers as they began to outnumber Jewish converts. Eventually the Hebrew or Aramaic writings would become few and far between because there would be no more use for them. That said there is still a Hebrew version of the whole Bible including the New Testament. Why it only dawned to gather them all into one Book a long time later is anyone's guess but to deny that they were out there in existence is silly.

The Koran isn't a patch on the Bible nor does it affect men and women the way the Bible does. For the Muslim, he has to work his socks off in the hope of mercy yet that mercy he seeks comes down to the very Person he refuses to accept and the One who is going to judge him at the final reckoning. That Person, Jesus Christ, must be God because God is the only One who can justify anyone but the Koran forbids the Muslim to accept that. That is the prime difference between the two so the reader must judge for himself which is the most authentic.

[SuperTechmarine]

" The Bible was written and compiled 60 years after Jesus's "death", much of it was hearsay."

SuperTechmarine,

I wish you guys would get your facts right before you all start spouting ridiculous comments. For a start the Bible began with the Old Testament which was written by Moses some 3/4,000 years ago and continued into what is now the New Testament addition which began to be written of just after Pentecost, some forty days after Jesus leaving for glory. For example if we take Jesus' death at around 33 A.D. then the writers must have been around one hundred years old when they put pen to paper and that is quite ridiculous.

That these men would leave telling of the wonderful works, death and resurrection for some 60 years of Jesus is downright stupidity if one actually knew anything about the nature of Jews. Of all the people on this planet they are the ultimate in spreading gossip and we are not far behind, so why, why would they wait all that time before writing of it? It may be that the writings we do have relate in age to them but that in no way confirms that they are the originals, why?

Because the ones we have are in Greek yet the Jews in and around the land of Israel spoke Aramaic as did Jesus himself and would have written in the same language to any other Jew. Now if that is not obvious then you don't know of the hatred that Jews had for Gentiles even in those times. And, since the churches grew around the synagogue as well as around the temple in Jerusalem, what Jew is it that would dare to transcend the Law by speaking in a hated tongue? They wouldn't even communicate with Gentiles unless it was absolutely necessary, business being one of these necessities.

So, from Pentecost onwards letters were being sent out to the new churches and some of these quite possibly are now in the Bible through the copies that were obviously made for the benefit of Gentile believers as they began to outnumber Jewish converts. Eventually the Hebrew or Aramaic writings would become few and far between because there would be no more use for them. That said there is still a Hebrew version of the whole Bible including the New Testament. Why it only dawned to gather them all into one Book a long time later is anyone's guess but to deny that they were out there in existence is silly.

The Koran isn't a patch on the Bible nor does it affect men and women the way the Bible does. For the Muslim, he has to work his socks off in the hope of mercy yet that mercy he seeks comes down to the very Person he refuses to accept and the One who is going to judge him at the final reckoning. That Person, Jesus Christ, must be God because God is the only One who can justify anyone but the Koran forbids the Muslim to accept that. That is the prime difference between the two so the reader must judge for himself which is the most authentic.

Why would an innocent man (Jesus) have to die for the crimes of the other guy?

If he was really God, he could have forgiven us without the shedding of blood.

Jesus is a Prophet as much as Muhammed or Abraham.

The Old Testament is based on the Torah is it not?

[ivan_the_terrible]

Can you specify which parts of the Bible were 'modified to fit the Church's need for Crusades'?

Also, you're aware of non-Roman Catholic churches (which had nothing to do with crusades... except being on the wrong end of them from time to time), aren't you? And of the fact that Catholic (not to mention Protestant) scholars went and re-translated from the original Greek and Hebrew when St Jerome's errors in the Vulgate became apparent?

I'd say that the fact that the Bible has undergone so many translations and editions is a healthy symptom; it means people have gone back to the original and looked at it critically, instead of simply copying it out for centuries (not that there's a chance the Koran is word for word as Mohamed set it out anyway).


But that it is simply technicalities. The root issue is that you choose to believe that there will be a precise number of virgins waiting to pleasure you when you die, simply because a medieval text says so. What is the rationale for this belief? It is no different to a Christian believing in heaven or whatever. The only difference is that one book is slightly older than the other one and written in a slightly different part of the Near East.

[Lazarus]

I'm all for enlightening people who seem to think that one religion is in some way superior to another (they're all the same - get over yourselves and just find peace already) because they blow up less or slaughtered less pagans or whatever, but was a new thread really essential? Couldn't you two have taken this up in PM's?

[Enzo]

I'm all for enlightening people who seem to think that one religion is in some way superior to another (they're all the same - get over yourselves and just find peace already) because they blow up less or slaughtered less pagans or whatever, but was a new thread really essential? Couldn't you two have taken this up in PM's?

They're all the same in that they understand that a higher power does in fact exist we're just working out the specifics. To me the Quran is much the same thing as the Book of Mormon its just someones later modification for their own agenda normally wealth, power and the women.

[Lazarus]

its just someones later modification for their own agenda normally wealth, power and the women.

Sorry, but this has Bible (and Quran and book of Mormon) written all over it.

You're all the same for all your differences. None of you are superior. None of you have any more basis in reality. You're all equally as plausible as each other, and none of you are backed up by particularly hard evidence.

[Enzo]

Sorry, but this has Bible (and Quran and book of Mormon) written all over it.

I think Jesus was much more selfless than Joesph Smith, Mohammed or L Ron Hubbard who all got a fair amount of power, money and women from the religions they founded. And the Jewish prophets were more interested in the good of their people than they were themselves, with Christianity that now extends to the human race as a whole. So there is a good basis to claim that one is distinct from the others. Otherwise they would all be equally as valid which is much the same as none of them being valid. You would really just be left with a collection of various charismatic individuals and cultural practices that divide people along ethnic lines, but that isn't what Jesus had in mind or offered.

You're all the same for all your differences. None of you are superior. None of you have any more basis in reality. You're all equally as plausible as each other, and none of you are backed up by particularly hard evidence.

The hard evidence I would use for the existence of God is that we live in a rationally understandable universe. The Bible was written many thousands of years before modern science yet this is the kind of universe it portrays, not a universe where the sun and moon are drawn across the sky by gods in chariots pulled by wolves. You have to take it in context this was written while people were still worshiping pieces of carved wood and bronze statutes that didn't do anything.

[boofhead]

Why would an innocent man (Jesus) have to die for the crimes of the other guy?

If he was really God, he could have forgiven us without the shedding of blood.

No offense, but you do not even have the slightest inkling or understanding of what Christianity is about, do you? Not any idea at all. If you did, you wouldn't have asked the most basic, fundamental questions of the belief system as though they were just some dumb mistake.

Jesus is a Prophet as much as Muhammed or Abraham.

Only to muslims. To Jews and Christians Jesus was not, is not and never will be a prophet. And Mohammed, obviously that goes without saying.

[squirel]

Only to muslims. To Jews and Christians Jesus was not, is not and never will be a prophet. And Mohammed, obviously that goes without saying.

Mohamedans

[Enzo]

Jesus is a prophet in Arian Christianity as well, Islam was thought be an Arian sect of Christianity at first and not something entirely new. I'm about halfway to seeing Jesus that way seeing as I'm more a Nestorian but it fits well with the concept of Jesus being entirely man and entirely God.

[boofhead]

Jesus is a prophet in Arian Christianity as well, Islam was thought be an Arian sect of Christianity at first and not something entirely new. I'm about halfway to seeing Jesus that way seeing as I'm more a Nestorian but it fits well with the concept of Jesus being entirely man and entirely God.

Well Arians and Nestorians are considered heretical and pretty much all dead and buried, so good luck with that.

[Enzo]

Well Arians and Nestorians are considered heretical and pretty much all dead and buried, so good luck with that.

Heresy just means choice and in the 21st century we should be free to be heretics. We're well beyond the burning at the stake phase. In any case the fully orthodox belief we have now was developed from a heresy called Docetism where Jesus was God and not a man at all.

[boofhead]

Heresy just means choice and in the 21st century we should be free to be heretics.

We have personal freedom of choice in any age, always have and always will. Do your Arian or Nestorian concepts fit with what is revealed in the New Testament, or don't you believe that the Bible is the best authority we have?