Massive clash in front of the Portuguese parliament staircase - live footage

[Vítor Gaspar]

http://www.tvtuga.com/sic-noticias/

There was a massive collective demonstration in every major Portuguese city today, the biggest since the 74 Revolution, and also in some European and Brazilian cities, in front of the Portuguese embassies.

I was thinking about creating a thread about this event afterwards, but the situation is getting out of hand and I think posting here a link from a Portuguese tv channel, who is covering the ongoing demonstration in front of the Assembleia da República while it holds a discussion at the same time, would be a good idea.

Lets debate the ongoing Portuguese events in this thread. I will come back to add some input and information on the subject when I finish dinner.

I live at around 1km from the Parliament. A friend of mine lives on the same street of the AR. She tells me the situation is really tense and she can't get out of home. 30 minutes ago I head shootings (I guess the police was using warning shots) and there are helicopters going and coming all the time above my roof.

[Watercress]

So, uh, what's this all about then?

[Imperial]

And the world is on the edge of its seat.....or not.

[SuperTechmarine]

So, why are they protesting? And why are Americans in this thread?

[Imperial]

And why are Americans in this thread?

We should derail this thread for further analysis.

[Thorn777]

Because having a beach isnt enough. You must also have all the Ikea, Audi, and Phillips stuff them Neuro's have. Like before. The new models etc coming out.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I want to know why they need the beaches? Not like they use them. Its all the Anglo tourists.

[Vítor Gaspar]

And the world is on the edge of its seat.....or not.

Whoever cares about Europe should be.

So, why are they protesting? And why are Americans in this thread?

You know what's going on in Europe, right? The protest is about the recent measures taken by the government to curb the national debt - a ridiculous pack of measures that many economists, including some associated to the IMF, consider counter-producing and prone to further deteriorate the situation, economic and political-wise.

Because having a beach isnt enough. You must also have all the Ikea, Audi, and Phillips stuff them Neuro's have. Like before. The new models etc coming out.

That was rather cryptic. Care to make your point slightly clearer for me?

[fkizz]

We're finally becoming more mediterranean - before we were too atlantic aka overpeaceful.

As the euro crisis progresses, division between north and southwest europe keeps growing, both sides having an "anti-mentality" of the other.

PS - Ze do Pipo your live stream is now showing comentators rather than protest footage, don't use a live stream.

[Vítor Gaspar]

Can't find a non-live stream video of the clashes yet. After all the demonstration is ongoing. That being said, here's a RTP 2 video link that is airing the news and often shows clips of the demonstrations.

http://www.tvtuga.com/rtp-2/

[Thorn777]

That was rather cryptic

I think people are rather cryptic in general about this issue.

Some things simply dont work. With debt it could, but what then?

I really think that southern Europeans in trouble here should stop getting angry about these McDonalds measures to become slightly less McDonalds, and become Portugese again. Riot about becoming Portugese again. Demand land reform etc. Let them Neuro's pay for their kork, tiles and grapes.

[Vítor Gaspar]

Thorn... so, our fate is misery and we should embrace it because there's nothing else we can do but conform ourselves and live with that?

So we should just drop everything and not demand a change so that we can leave debt behind and resume our economic growth?

Why on Earth do we have to lie on the floor in a foetal position and assume we're doomed, embracing the fatality of our lives as a future?

Portugal could be rich. Spain could be rich. Even Greece could be rich! We have deep, serious and undeniable structural problems. We do. We needed the EU to change that. If you had seen Portugal, or studied it (I was born in the "fat cows generation", as some older Portuguese say, but I studied a lot and I know the adversities my family faced in the past), before the 80's you'd see we have come a great length. The simple fact we're at we are now is, in a way, a success. A bitter-sweet success.

I never, ever, denied we owe money to our creditors. I will never, ever stop saying, though, that loans benefit those who lent us money. I will never stop saying, as well, that we put Northern Europe in motion for a decade or two - now if that motion didn't went into the average Northern European's pockets, that's another thing.

Now, that's how finance works. Someone lends you money and you have to pay it back. I am not denying that. But we could have done NOTHING without an influx of capital into Southern Europe. And we can still work things out.

But we just can't if the EU and Northern Europe assumes a predatory stance towards us. We are in an Union for a reason. We're not saying we're not paying anything. People in Lisbon, tonight, aren't saying they don't want to pay our creditors. They just want to Government to deal better with the situation. To take decisions that work, not neo-liberal bs Americans from the IMF feed them. They're not working. I have all the stats in the world to prove you that.

Tell me - do you think it's fair and realistic to ask over 150 million people to drop their dreams and future because they, according to some, "just can't"?

[Thorn777]

Im not saying you will, but my view is this McDonalds way of life is heading the iceberg, globally.

So you can either get mad at whoever cryptic people, for whatever cryptic reasons, but I think you'd be better off, better than the rest of us actually, to use this global stability still at place, and prepare for the worst, instead of being so angry about not being where you where some years ago. Because realistically you wont ever. You wont be Germany and you should not want to be.


I dunno if thats "Misery", prolly is to a society as ed as the rest of them.

And no. Northern Europe has been in "motion" since industrialization quite steadily. I remember even how I as an 11 year old or so did an essay in my school in holland about "Made in Germany". That was well before the Euro and its a historic fact Germany is a leading industrial power and leading exporter decades before the euro and decades before Schengen. Another historic fact is the capital flight to giips actually chocked the German economy some years ago, I told you that a thousand times. All while export figures to the GIIPS declined by double digits, yet overall German exports increase as a still pretty late historic fact. Now how is that? Not that exports are an end all be all anyway, but thats a story of its own. If exports get you inflated $ to be quickly recycled at wallstreet, or dependent states needing your private and public cash to buy than thats certainly not a very good deal.

[fkizz]

Thorn, your statements about economic causing realpolitik being ok has an internal flaw - you are forgetting that we are in the european union. If we weren't, your darwinistic-economics could make some sense, but the european union was made exactly to prevent this kind of tension and conflict.

Therefore, you argue as if all countries are sort of enemy-rivals and shouldn't take care of each other, a view that makes sense if we ignore reality: we are in an european union.

What is an european union good for if the same amount of agressiveness, or even a bigger amount of hostility is present between the countries, and economically weaker countries can't resort to inflation to increase their competitiveness by devaluing their currency, being trapped in the euro coin?

Your whole posts reek of agresiveness and taking the idea of competition too far, something that is not acceptable in a union - you want to go that way, speak against the EU, would be more coherent.

Imagine the USA if all the states didn't cooperate between themselves. You would have no USA.

Point is, if we want to follow your distopya of social darwinism then the better option is to stop playing politically correct and end the EU farce. If we want to fight against it and promote well being and social peace between the countries, we should keep to the EU.

Your social darwinism and praising of realpolitik should wait when we stick to more right wing solutions, and when an EU is not present - do you know the meaning of union and cooperation?

If you don't like cooperation or union, which is an idea that may demand harsh things from everyone, maybe you shouldn't be there in first place.

[Thorn777]

First. Like anyone in Portgual cares about Germany.

Im saying this as a romantic and like to follow your ideas about union and harmony etc, but the fact is, its impossible for a Germany & Co to sustain bubble levels for well over one hundred million people in several nations with public funds.

Simple as that. USA cant even get back where it was despite all its trillion $ measures and global clout it has and pumping it all in its own economy. And where is Portugal thinking it can get back to? Explain me this please? Same way as before wont work. So riot then. But about what? Better reinvent Portugal is what Im saying.

If that shows lack of caring then so be it.

[fkizz]

First. Like anyone in Portgual cares about Germany.

Im saying this a romantic and like to follow your ideas about union and harmony etc, but the fact is, its impossible for a German & Co to sustain bubble levels for well over one hundred million people in several nations with public funds.

I believe Germany is the euro country suffering less from the crisis, with an increasing leading power in the affairs of the union, and managing some yearly economical growth

Simple as that. USA cant even get back where it was despite all its trillion $ measures and global clout it has. And where is Portugal thinking it can get back to? Explain me this please? Same way as before wont work. So riot then. But about what? Better reinvent Portugal is what Im saying.

If that shows lack of caring then so be it.

Well USA has 15 trillion dollars in debt.. Countries are different but Portugal debt is also very different.. and smaller..

National Debt is eternal, since new debts are always being made, problem is if the ability to pay such debts on time suffer ie - a high deficit.

As for me, I do believe said can be done if we get a competent government - with current one nothing will be solved. And things are moving to get a better one.

Also if this increases your faith this is our third time dealing with IMF, and the two previous ones were sucessful - if we were sucessful with IMF the two previous times, why shouldn't we be now?

The only thing that changed is the Euro, previously we could devalue our currency, we can't anymore.

As for finding union and cooperation is romantic, well, I can easily say that European Union follows a romantic idea aswell.

In my opinion, EU could have worked fine, but the Euro brought the countries way too close - european countries can into cooperation, as long as they have their "personal space".

EU will need to find a way for countries to have their distance, without being too distant.

Well you're free to not care, but EU was made with it in mind that countries would eventually care - it's the psychological foundation that will futurely support it in case it goes foward.

I personally have my doubts of the said union, but I think blaming a country with finance troubles for the trouble at home is not effective - people always love a scapegoat more than anything.

However troubled countries usually never bothered their neighbour - but sharing the same currency they do. In essence, it's the union mechanisms fault, rather than the country's fault.

Also we never know the future, in maybe 40-60 years tables may turn, and it will be the south and west europe role the bail out netherlands or some other currently wealthy country, assuming that the union still exists.

Nobody said unions are easy, and I find myself not agreeing with EU on many things - but to blame a country for effects that are caused by the union, is to fall in error, in my opinion.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

I thought you guys were doing O.K.? But, I get it, it's those retarded measures again. We are just doing circles: Want to eradicate the budget deficit in 1 year-> Ignore reforms, taxation of the rich, proceed with decreasing wages for the low and middle class and raise taxes for these classes as well-> People spend less and less money, stores and businesses close, the GDP decreases-> the goal for the budget deficit cannot be achieved anymore-> New measures.

Don't worry, Greece would have returned to the markets by 2010...

[fkizz]

I thought you guys were doing O.K.? But, I get it, it's those retarded measures again. We are just doing circles: Want to eradicate the budget deficit in 1 year-> Ignore reforms, taxation of the rich, proceed with decreasing wages for the low and middle class and raise taxes for these classes as well-> People spend less and less money, stores and businesses close, the GDP decreases-> the goal for the budget deficit cannot be achieved anymore-> New measures.

In a nutshell, our government wants to collect more money than Troika demands, and it won't even be to pay the debt/ease the deficit, but to give to corporations! So this protests are more government focused than against troika, even if people don't like troika either, main concern is to drive current PM and ministers away.

But still what you said applies.. Apply measures -> GDP lowers because of the measures -> GDP drops faster than the deficit -> GDP/deficit ratio still not good because GDP dropped faster than deficit -> new measures -> same thing happens

I someties wonder if Troika knows what's doing or it's all a huge experiment for a few ph.d economists settle their disputes on who has the right theory.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

In a nutshell, our government wants to collect more money than Troika demands, and it won't even be to pay the debt/ease the deficit, but to give to corporations! So this protests are more government focused than against troika, even if people don't like troika either, main concern is to drive current PM and ministers away.

But still what you said applies.. Apply measures -> GDP lowers because of the measures -> GDP drops faster than the deficit -> GDP/deficit ratio still not good because GDP dropped faster than deficit -> new measures -> same thing happens

I someties wonder if Troika knows what's doing or it's all a huge experiment for a few ph.d economists settle their disputes on who has the right theory.

No, of course they don't. The troika is made up of a bunch of amateurs who have absolutely no knowledge on economics and just had the right friends. At least, that's what I get from seeing their yearly estimates for the Greek economy fail miserably. For example, I will only mention the fact that those guys failed miserably to even estimate the turnout of the Greek budget for 2012. The state revenues were higher by 3 bn compared to what they estimated and the state expenditure was lower by 3 bn euros compared to their estimates. That gives us a 6 bn euros difference, which is huge for an economy like the Greek one. And now, they are demanding that we take 11,5 bn worth measures, according to their estimations, even though, as it turned out, we could do with just half of them.

Source is an official report by one of the biggest banks of Greece (Alphabank).

[Vítor Gaspar]

Im not saying you will, but my view is this McDonalds way of life is heading the iceberg, globally.

So you can either get mad at whoever cryptic people, for whatever cryptic reasons, but I think you'd be better off, better than the rest of us actually, to use this global stability still at place, and prepare for the worst, instead of being so angry about not being where you where some years ago. Because realistically you wont ever. You wont be Germany and you should not want to be.

I don't get mad at whoever cryptic people and, may I add, I hold no ill feeling towards Germany or the German people. Quite the opposite. I love Germany and the Germans. And I have been to school, until last year, always with at least 2 German friends in my class. If anything, and taking them and their families as the average German family (that lives in Portugal - or used to live, they're thinking of going back. They had a business going on but it is now failing), I feel I am more qualified than the average Portuguese to note what differs us from the Germans.

This may seem an unnecessary detail but I want you to know that whenever my tone gets more radical or apparently angry, there's absolutely nothing personal going on. More than anyone I respect the Germans' industrious personality and more than anyone I wish we had more of that - even if I think we're actually quite close to having that. We aren't that different. Geography and history just kept us more separated than what we really are.

So, having said that, let me address to some of your points...

And no. Northern Europe has been in "motion" since industrialization quite steadily. I remember even how I as an 11 year old or so did an essay in my school in holland about "Made in Germany". That was well before the Euro and its a historic fact Germany is a leading industrial power and leading exporter decades before the euro and decades before Schengen.

When Germany was divided by tiny principalities Portugal was a leading global power and we, effectively, and judging by some not-so-reliable studies (as we can't really be certain), had among the world highest GDPs.

More than that, for 2 centuries Portugal was the place where many major scientific breakthroughs occurred. We were an industrious people. European expansion couldn't even have taken place without Portuguese inventions (the caravel, just to name a few). We also had incredibly good rulers, and we had Europe's first centralised state. By 1350/1400 Portugal was a modern country, bureaucracy-wise, with Lisbon as a capital and already some oddly precocious "general law codes" that would only pop up around Europe centuries later.

In fact the Portuguese bureaucratic machine was renowned for being able to hold so many sparse territories under the banner of the Portuguese Kingdom. Corruption was the norm everywhere in Europe, but we had a "proto-meritocracy" going on in Portugal for a while. It was the Portuguese golden age.

Things changed, and I am far from saying that what we accomplished in the past means we can accomplish it now. No. That would make no sense. The Portuguese from the past aren't the Portuguese from today, and many factors that contributed to our success changed.

There are many reasons for that. Religion, being the major one. In fact our religious past still has a lot to do with our current situation, more than you can ever imagine. A good read on Portuguese history would tell you that.

All this to say that some of the factors that contributed to our past success are still there. We no longer have the vibrating Jewish community that made Portugal a technological leader - Fanatical Catholocism took that away from us. But we can still create an educated class that could make us, at least, a country comparable to the Netherlands in that regard.

We still have geography in our side. Historically, it was both our gift and misery. Gift for it pushed us to India, Africa and Brazil, and give birth to modern Portugal. Misery for, when our colonies rebelled, we were now Europe's ass and away, so far away from the European commercial centre and where most Europeans lived, proving to be a major bottleneck for us.

And that's where now Portugal, without its colonies, stands. Portugal is European but never lived like a truly European country. We were always a nation at a crossroad. Our culture is closer to that of Northern Europe than the Spanish, in average, is, for example (we're descendant of the Galicians), but ultimately we're too far away from Europe's heart to foster our economic development without the colonies.

But the world is changing. Especially the Portuguese world, which is changing a lot. And our position can prove to be a major positive feature, again. Brazil and its vast domestic market, its resources, its historical and economical relationship with Portugal.

As an EU state, if the EU lives, that could be a major point for Portugal - we, going back, again, to our commercial past. Because our terrains aren't suit for agriculture like Spain's are. Or France's. But we have a coast, a coast which shaped our history, for better and for worse.

There are studies on this. All this to say that we may have a future, even inside the EU.

Another historic fact is the capital flight to giips actually chocked the German economy some years ago, I told you that a thousand times. All while export figures to the GIIPS declined by double digits, yet overall German exports increase as a still pretty late historic fact. Now how is that? Not that exports are an end all be all anyway, but thats a story of its own. If exports get you inflated $ to be quickly recycled at wallstreet, or dependent states needing your private and public cash to buy than thats certainly not a very good deal.

You're absolutely right - capital flight chocked the German economy... or did it?

More than anything it chocked Germany's working class. The financial class prospered. After all, explain me: how did Germany's capital flight to SE coexist with a massive growth of Germany's GNP? Not GDP, GNP?

I may have over simplified things when I told you that "Germany lent us money so that we could buy your goods". That was an over simplification. It did happen but it doesn't portray Germany's relationship with SE as it should. But I didn't have time. And I am writing such a lengthy post - which I hope you read - to explain you that:

See, I know a bunch of people that work at Autoeuropa's plant in Palmela, South of Lisbon. It's one of VW's largest factories. Portuguese work there, when Germans could be doing the same in Germany. For a higher price, of course.

This capital flight to Portugal reduced Germany's GDP. But it increased Germany's GNP. More Germans may have been unemployed because the Portuguese were now doing their job for a lower salary. But did VW profit from it... they did. A lot.

And so did Siemens. And Opel. Coming from France, PSA. The Netherlands, Grunding. And Unilever.

All those companies and their CEOs prospered. And so did many NE banks, thinking the bubble wouldn't bust in SE. Loaning money to other SE banks that conceded credits to people who would buy superfluous goods just because, now, the Portuguese, the Spaniards, the Greeks, could. We lived in misery. We were going. Our markets were expanding. Lots of foreign investment, factories popping out everywhere.

Now, this German companies in Portugal would profit, and so would their owners, at the expense of the average Germans. Exports would grow because emergent economies, plus SE, were now importing more. Unemployment could rise because of the capital flight, and that would push GDP down, but then the growing exportation rate would counterbalance that. And when we talk about the GNP, well, German multinationals were booming up those rates.

Then Asia arrived. Eastern Europe did, too. Then SE stopped being a good place for German capital to flood in and these other countries became the prime spot, for the very same reasons why Portugal was in the past.

And, suddenly, we lost our capital influx. We "starved", capital-wise. That started the inevitable. At the same time, loans still had to be paid, and our "new rich" attitude doomed our families.

Thorn, the problem wasn't Portugal. Or Spain. Or even Greece. Sure corruption is a problem and brought many of these issues, but generally speaking, it isn't as severe in some of these countries (specifically Portugal) as it is in Greece or Italy.

The problem was the system, this system that is bringing us down. How can the average German live worse today than 10 years ago if German companies and its GNP is booming?

Maybe that capital flight, more than being other country's fault, is the fault of us, the nationals from where that flight occurs, that let lobbies get so much power in our parliaments.

Politics is now more about representing the interests of big multinationals, that account for 1% or 2%, each, of our GDP, than the people.

And that is it.

First. Like anyone in Portgual cares about Germany.

I do. Maybe you should quit the whole cynicism for a while. There are still people who care and think of this whole EU thing as a great idea gone wrong... for now.

And where is Portugal thinking it can get back to? Explain me this please? Same way as before wont work. So riot then. But about what? Better reinvent Portugal is what Im saying.

Yes. Better reinvent Portugal. And you wouldn't believe how often I think of that everyday... but, moreover, better reinvent Europe.