[Suggestion] More noble titles

[Jokern]

I, for once, feel that it would be nice if more than the noble titles that are IG right now. Here's how I think it should look like:

*NEW* -> Knight/Ritter: Landless noble

*NEW* -> Baron/Baron: Barony, replaces Viscount

-> Viscount: From what I've read, wasn't used in the HRE

-> Count/Graf: County

*NEW* -> Prince/Fürst: Principality

-> Duke/Herzog:

*NEW* -> Archduke/Erzherzog: Archduchy

-> King/König: Kingdom

-> Emperor/Kaiser: Empire

Income suggestion:

Format:
Name, promotional income, yearly income

Knight: 500, 100

Baron: 1 000, 200

Count: 1 500, 300

Prince: 2 000, 400

Duke: 2 500, 600

Archduke: 3 000, 800

King: 3 500, 1 000

Emperor: 4 000, 1 500

Proposed changes

The Feudal System in the Empire

Feudal Structure Feudalism was a complex structure of hierarchy. And even more so it was in the empire. I will keep the history lecture to a minimum and try explain as as simple as possible. Broadly defined, feudalism was a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour. In this game, the feudal structure will be as follows. -> Knights: The lowest rank in the royal hierarchy. Knights do not hold any land, but serve as warriors and commanders for other nobles of higher rank. They can also be without a master, serving only themselves. Knights have no say in any matters regarding the Empire and can therefore not promote others or create titles. A knight can be granted land if a higher ranked noble grant him a region. The knight will then become a baron and will be a vassal of the higher ranked noble. -> Barons: The lowest rank in the royal hierarchy that hold land. Barons rule a region, and its holdings. Barons cannot promote others or create titles. -> Counts: A step above barons. Counts rule two or more regions. Counts can promote people to the feudal structure, but still cannot create titles, although they can promote knights to barons and grant them a region as long as they stay as the count's vassal. -> Princes: Princes are in the middle, having more power than counts, yet are under dukes in the feudal structure.A prince rules over 3 or more regions or 2 or more baronies. Princes can promote people to the feudal structure and can create titles. -> Dukes: Dukes were the prominent people in the empire. A duke rules over four or more regions or two or more counties. The power and position dukes held gave them better odds to become kings and emperors. -> Archdukes: Archdukes were powerful people in the empire, almost on the same level of kings. An archduke rules over 5 or more regions or 3 or more counties. The power and position archdukes held gave them better odds to become kings and emperors. -> Kings: A king was one of the most prominent figures in Europe, and they usually were supposed to rule at least around six or more regions or two or more duchies. But getting here itself is the challenge. And holding it for your dynasty even more so, as Frankish and Lombard traditions deemed the Royal title to be elective. -> Emperor: The highest temporal honour in Christendom. It is a title derived from the legendary Romans themselves. It is title that equates itself to something like The King of Kings. For a realm to be an empire, it must hold at least two or more kingdoms. But reaching here is not the toughest challenge, despite it's tradition being elective. The toughest challenge to any player will be to establish his dynasty on the imperial throne. Oath of Fealty Oath of Fealty or Allegiance was a pledge of loyalty to a higher lord. As the time period being dark ages, there was no formalised system for this. Therefore, every time a new lord takes power, all the lower lords under him should come to pledge fealty to him. A grace time will be allowed by the lord to give them time to come and pledge. A royal can allow more grace time to come and pledge or otherwise. Failing to pledge the oath would be a hint at defiance and rebellion. Titles and Succession Titles are now considered permanent. That is, they are not destroyed simply by the end of the ruling dynasty. If the ruling dynasty comes to an end, the titles enter into succession period. The person claiming the title can be a kin of the dead ruler, or a distant branch of their dynasty, or any person brave enough to take the title for himself. For example, the King of (say) Arles dies without any heir. The kingly title can be claimed by, - Kin of the deceased king, - Distant member of his dynasty (who may be from another realm), - Any person brave enough to take it. Succession Laws In those days, succession was different from today. One could not include in their will, "I declare my pet dog Fluffy as heir and successor to this duchy". The feudal titles were derived from either ancient documents or traditions. Succession was governed by these laws. The laws could be changed from time to time, but constantly changing them brought serious consequences to the legitimacy of the rulers. Also, please do note that by succession, I mean succeeding to the ruling title, like becoming a duke. For other aspects such as wealth and property, the term inheritance applies. The following are the laws. Gender Laws -> Agnatic: By this law, only male heirs can succeed to ruling titles. This succession is enforced by many laws, most notably Salic laws and Roman laws. -> Agnatic-Cognatic: This law is a variation of the agnatic law. It provides for the case where the ruler has no male heir. By this law, female heirs can succeed in case there is no male heir. Succession Laws -> Elective: By this law, the succession is determined by election. The prominent lords of a realm are the people who elect the heirs. This law was a common law used by many realms, most notable of them are Danes, Franks, and Lombards. -> Primogeniture: By this law, the eldest child of the ruler becomes heir to the throne. This is the easiest way of ensuring continuing of dynastic rule in the realm. -> Senority: By this law, the oldest living member of the dynasty becomes heir to the throne. This is also a way to ensure continuation of dynastic rule in the realm. De Jure System of Titles In simple definition, De Jure means concerning law. Since this is used in reference to ruling titles, it signifies the laws concerning titles. For understanding its role in the game, it is the law that ties a title to a higher title. The following are the titles coming under this system. -> Knighthood: This title can be tied to higher noble titles, but it can also be directly tied to the imperial title too. However, this title is the only one that doesn't have to be tied to a higher noble title. -> Baronies, Counties and Princely: These titles are tied to the higher ducal titles on basis of region or history. However, these titles can also be directly tied to royal and imperial titles too. -> Ducal and Archducal (Duchies and Archduchies): These titles are tied to the higher royal title. However, these titles can also be directly tied to the imperial title too. -> Royal (Kingdoms): This title can be tied only to the higher imperial title. -> Imperial (Empire): This is the highest of all titles and cannot be tied to anything. This De Jure system also governs the Creation, Abolishing (destruction), and Transfer (changing the ties from one higher title to another title) of titles. However, a good reason must exist to do any of those things. The following points should give some more insight. -> Knighthood: This title is really easy to create, abolish, or transfer. But doing so would have no impact on anything. -> Barony: This title is relatively easy to create, abolish, or transfer. But doing so would have minimum to negligible impact on anything. -> County: This title is wee bit difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is due to the fact that it is the mainstream or basic title in any realm. -> Princely: This title is wee bit difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is due to the fact that it is the mainstream or basic title in any realm. -> Ducal: This title is relatively difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a higher title when compared to others. -> Archducal: This title is relatively difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a higher title when compared to others. -> Royal: This title is very difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a title which can give sovereign status and powers. -> Imperial: This title is extremely difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. It can also be said that it would near impossible as the title is either derived directly from the roman empire or indirectly through Charlemagne's legacy. The Imperial Throne - Climbing the Ladder This is the pinnacle of power, and the highest point in the game. But is it as simple as a vote and a crown. In the dark ages, it was not. Later it would be, but in this time period it was not. The imperial title had two more title tied to it. -> Kingdom of the Germans, -> Kingdom of Italy. So, your rise to the imperial throne will have the three following steps. King of the Germans The following are the points to explain about it. -> This title, in accordance to Frankish traditions, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by prominent lords in the kingdom. -> The king shall be elected and crowned in the Aachen cathedral. King of Italy The following points should explain about it. -> This title, also according to tradition, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by prominent lords in the kingdom. -> The king shall be elected and crowned in the cathedral at Pavia. Emperor of the Romans Now that the two elections and coronations are over, it will be time for the final one. Following are few points about it. -> This title, according to Roman traditions, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by all prominent lords of the empire. -> The emperor shall be crowned by the Pope in the city of Rome. Now we come to the interesting part. Although simple as it appears, a lot could happen there. -> The two royal titles won by a single candidate. This is simple case, he can go on to be directly crowned as emperor. -> The two royal titles won by different candidates. In such a case, both of them will have equal likeliness to become emperor. A candidate who has not won any of the above royal title can still stand for the imperial throne out of sheer will. Decrees - The Laws of the Land In the dark ages, realms had no system of written laws, with the exception of a few. Quite literally, the lord's word was law. And so it shall be in the game. Decrees can be made by rulers unless they decide to reduce (or reduce by mistake) their power by future decrees. However, decrees can be made by rulers who have substantial importance and power. Therefore only the following people can make decrees with the area of effect. -> Kings: Decrees binding in their respective kingdoms. -> Emperor: Decrees binding in the whole empire and it's subject realms. This decree also has precedence over decrees made by subject kings. So, what can you do in a decree? For that, I would ask you to be creative in that regard. However, I will provide a small list of them to give an idea. - Increase his power, - Decrease his power, - Create offices, - Abolish offices, - Create, or Abolish, or Transfer titles, - Promote nobles, - Demote nobles, - Proclaim new laws, - Abolish old/existing laws. That's pretty much all I could think of. Also, the offices created by decrees will be titled according to their hierarchy. That is, the offices created by Kings will have the prefix "Lord", Lord Chancellor for example. On the other hand, the offices created by the Emperor will have the prefix "High" or "Grand" depending on the office, High Chancellor for example. Lastly, something to keep this interesting. Moderators can and might, by discretion, have rolls done for controversial and revolutionising decrees. Royals and Others This title is not very precise, but this part is important. Royals will need other paths, namely merchants and scholars, for a variety of purposes. Royals and Merchants Unless a royal is highly money minded or terrifically powerful, he would constantly need merchants at his side. After all, ambition and war does not come cheap. The royal can reward the merchant with thing that only power can buy. Royals and Scholars Unless a royal has superior intelligence stats, he would constantly need scholars to keep forging documents for him. Whether it be for false claims, or for change succession laws or anything else.

Ranks and Incomes

Income The currency in the game will be Florins, as the Reichmark is yet to be created. Starting/Promotion Income: Most players will start off as Viscounts, however for those who have carried over their characters rank and regions an appropriate title will be given with regards to the new game rules, and thus they'd collect the starting income of that respective ranks. Promotion incomes are given as one-off payments when you acquire a new rank. Royals Knight - 500 Florins Baron - 1,000 Florins Count - 1,500 Florins Prince - 2,000 Florins Duke - 2,500 Florins Archduke - 3,000 Florins King - 3,500 Florins Emperor - 4,000 Florins Scholars Scholar - 1,500 Florins Doctor - 2,000 Florins Merchants See here Yearly Income: This is the income you'll collect at the end of each in-game year, it can be changed dependant on a number of things, the figures below are just base rates. Royals Knight - 100 Florins Baron - 200 Florins Count - 300 Florins Prince - 400 Florins Duke - 600 Florins Archduke - 800 Florins King - 1,000 Florins Emperor - 1,500 Florins Royals also gain extra income from taxation, please see here for the full details. Scholars Scholar - 500 Florins Doctor - 750 Florins Merchants See here Ranks This section will explain the ranks, and how to be promoted. Royals See here Scholars Players will start off as a Scholar and it is the only class where players can embark upon personal quests. To rise to the rank of Doctor one must be appointed by a Duke or higher for a mod approved reason, or have gained the promotion through the rewards of a personal quest. To apply for a personal quest, detailing what you want to achieve, contact a mod who will set one and guide you through it. These quests are a great way to earn rewards such as skill points and traits, and be the most enjyable type of role-play. Merchants See here

[Gandalfus]

I agree. Perhaps a prince should be ranked higher than a Duke though? On the same level as Archduke?

[Jokern]

The reigning title Prince is the equivalent of Fürst in German, which is a high nobility title, but it is under Count.

[Gandalfus]

Very well.

[ForteS]

I like the idea.

[Dirty Chai]

Support here too.

[Gandalfus]

Put to vote.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

No.

It'll make it too complex and too much going on.

[Gandalfus]

I wouldn't say so, it's only a few extra ranks. I mean, if people understood the last game, it won't be nowhere near as hard to understand this.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Still.....

Ah well we'll go with the majority.

[Jokern]

WIP for the reworked nobility system if accepted:

The Feudal System in the Empire

Feudal Structure Feudalism was a complex structure of hierarchy. And even more so it was in the empire. I will keep the history lecture to a minimum and try explain as as simple as possible. Broadly defined, feudalism was a system for structuring society around relationships derived from the holding of land in exchange for service or labour. In this game, the feudal structure will be as follows. -> Knights: The lowest rank in the royal hierarchy. Knights do not hold any land, but serve as warriors and commanders for other nobles of higher rank. They can also be without a master, serving only themselves. Knights have no say in any matters regarding the Empire and can therefore not promote others or create titles. A knight can be granted land if a higher ranked noble grant him a region. The knight will then become a baron and will be a vassal of the higher ranked noble. -> Barons: The lowest rank in the royal hierarchy that hold land. Barons rule a region, and its holdings. Barons cannot promote others or create titles. -> Counts: A step above barons. Counts rule two or more regions. Counts can promote people to the feudal structure, but still cannot create titles, although they can promote knights to barons and grant them a region as long as they stay as the count's vassal. -> Princes: Princes are in the middle, having more power than counts, yet are under dukes in the feudal structure.A prince rules over 3 or more regions or 2 or more baronies. Princes can promote people to the feudal structure and can create titles. -> Dukes: Dukes were the prominent people in the empire. A duke rules over four or more regions or two or more counties. The power and position dukes held gave them better odds to become kings and emperors. -> Archdukes: Archdukes were powerful people in the empire, almost on the same level of kings. An archduke rules over 5 or more regions or 3 or more counties. The power and position archdukes held gave them better odds to become kings and emperors. -> Kings: A king was one of the most prominent figures in Europe, and they usually were supposed to rule at least around six or more regions or two or more duchies. But getting here itself is the challenge. And holding it for your dynasty even more so, as Frankish and Lombard traditions deemed the Royal title to be elective. -> Emperor: The highest temporal honour in Christendom. It is a title derived from the legendary Romans themselves. It is title that equates itself to something like The King of Kings. For a realm to be an empire, it must hold at least two or more kingdoms. But reaching here is not the toughest challenge, despite it's tradition being elective. The toughest challenge to any player will be to establish his dynasty on the imperial throne. Oath of Fealty Oath of Fealty or Allegiance was a pledge of loyalty to a higher lord. As the time period being dark ages, there was no formalised system for this. Therefore, every time a new lord takes power, all the lower lords under him should come to pledge fealty to him. A grace time will be allowed by the lord to give them time to come and pledge. A royal can allow more grace time to come and pledge or otherwise. Failing to pledge the oath would be a hint at defiance and rebellion. Titles and Succession Titles are now considered permanent. That is, they are not destroyed simply by the end of the ruling dynasty. If the ruling dynasty comes to an end, the titles enter into succession period. The person claiming the title can be a kin of the dead ruler, or a distant branch of their dynasty, or any person brave enough to take the title for himself. For example, the King of (say) Arles dies without any heir. The kingly title can be claimed by, - Kin of the deceased king, - Distant member of his dynasty (who may be from another realm), - Any person brave enough to take it. Succession Laws In those days, succession was different from today. One could not include in their will, "I declare my pet dog Fluffy as heir and successor to this duchy". The feudal titles were derived from either ancient documents or traditions. Succession was governed by these laws. The laws could be changed from time to time, but constantly changing them brought serious consequences to the legitimacy of the rulers. Also, please do note that by succession, I mean succeeding to the ruling title, like becoming a duke. For other aspects such as wealth and property, the term inheritance applies. The following are the laws. Gender Laws -> Agnatic: By this law, only male heirs can succeed to ruling titles. This succession is enforced by many laws, most notably Salic laws and Roman laws. -> Agnatic-Cognatic: This law is a variation of the agnatic law. It provides for the case where the ruler has no male heir. By this law, female heirs can succeed in case there is no male heir. Succession Laws -> Elective: By this law, the succession is determined by election. The prominent lords of a realm are the people who elect the heirs. This law was a common law used by many realms, most notable of them are Danes, Franks, and Lombards. -> Primogeniture: By this law, the eldest child of the ruler becomes heir to the throne. This is the easiest way of ensuring continuing of dynastic rule in the realm. -> Senority: By this law, the oldest living member of the dynasty becomes heir to the throne. This is also a way to ensure continuation of dynastic rule in the realm. De Jure System of Titles In simple definition, De Jure means concerning law. Since this is used in reference to ruling titles, it signifies the laws concerning titles. For understanding its role in the game, it is the law that ties a title to a higher title. The following are the titles coming under this system. -> Knighthood: This title can be tied to higher noble titles, but it can also be directly tied to the imperial title too. However, this title is the only one that doesn't have to be tied to a higher noble title. -> Baronies, Counties and Princely: These titles are tied to the higher ducal titles on basis of region or history. However, these titles can also be directly tied to royal and imperial titles too. -> Ducal and Archducal (Duchies and Archduchies): These titles are tied to the higher royal title. However, these titles can also be directly tied to the imperial title too. -> Royal (Kingdoms): This title can be tied only to the higher imperial title. -> Imperial (Empire): This is the highest of all titles and cannot be tied to anything. This De Jure system also governs the Creation, Abolishing (destruction), and Transfer (changing the ties from one higher title to another title) of titles. However, a good reason must exist to do any of those things. The following points should give some more insight. -> Knighthood: This title is really easy to create, abolish, or transfer. But doing so would have no impact on anything. -> Barony: This title is relatively easy to create, abolish, or transfer. But doing so would have minimum to negligible impact on anything. -> County: This title is wee bit difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is due to the fact that it is the mainstream or basic title in any realm. -> Princely: This title is wee bit difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is due to the fact that it is the mainstream or basic title in any realm. -> Ducal: This title is relatively difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a higher title when compared to others. -> Archducal: This title is relatively difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a higher title when compared to others. -> Royal: This title is very difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. This is because it is now a title which can give sovereign status and powers. -> Imperial: This title is extremely difficult to create, abolish, or transfer. It can also be said that it would near impossible as the title is either derived directly from the roman empire or indirectly through Charlemagne's legacy. The Imperial Throne - Climbing the Ladder This is the pinnacle of power, and the highest point in the game. But is it as simple as a vote and a crown. In the dark ages, it was not. Later it would be, but in this time period it was not. The imperial title had two more title tied to it. -> Kingdom of the Germans, -> Kingdom of Italy. So, your rise to the imperial throne will have the three following steps. King of the Germans The following are the points to explain about it. -> This title, in accordance to Frankish traditions, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by prominent lords in the kingdom. -> The king shall be elected and crowned in the Aachen cathedral. King of Italy The following points should explain about it. -> This title, also according to tradition, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by prominent lords in the kingdom. -> The king shall be elected and crowned in the cathedral at Pavia. Emperor of the Romans Now that the two elections and coronations are over, it will be time for the final one. Following are few points about it. -> This title, according to Roman traditions, will be an elective one. -> The candidates will be elected by all prominent lords of the empire. -> The emperor shall be crowned by the Pope in the city of Rome. Now we come to the interesting part. Although simple as it appears, a lot could happen there. -> The two royal titles won by a single candidate. This is simple case, he can go on to be directly crowned as emperor. -> The two royal titles won by different candidates. In such a case, both of them will have equal likeliness to become emperor. A candidate who has not won any of the above royal title can still stand for the imperial throne out of sheer will. Decrees - The Laws of the Land In the dark ages, realms had no system of written laws, with the exception of a few. Quite literally, the lord's word was law. And so it shall be in the game. Decrees can be made by rulers unless they decide to reduce (or reduce by mistake) their power by future decrees. However, decrees can be made by rulers who have substantial importance and power. Therefore only the following people can make decrees with the area of effect. -> Kings: Decrees binding in their respective kingdoms. -> Emperor: Decrees binding in the whole empire and it's subject realms. This decree also has precedence over decrees made by subject kings. So, what can you do in a decree? For that, I would ask you to be creative in that regard. However, I will provide a small list of them to give an idea. - Increase his power, - Decrease his power, - Create offices, - Abolish offices, - Create, or Abolish, or Transfer titles, - Promote nobles, - Demote nobles, - Proclaim new laws, - Abolish old/existing laws. That's pretty much all I could think of. Also, the offices created by decrees will be titled according to their hierarchy. That is, the offices created by Kings will have the prefix "Lord", Lord Chancellor for example. On the other hand, the offices created by the Emperor will have the prefix "High" or "Grand" depending on the office, High Chancellor for example. Lastly, something to keep this interesting. Moderators can and might, by discretion, have rolls done for controversial and revolutionising decrees. Royals and Others This title is not very precise, but this part is important. Royals will need other paths, namely merchants and scholars, for a variety of purposes. Royals and Merchants Unless a royal is highly money minded or terrifically powerful, he would constantly need merchants at his side. After all, ambition and war does not come cheap. The royal can reward the merchant with thing that only power can buy. Royals and Scholars Unless a royal has superior intelligence stats, he would constantly need scholars to keep forging documents for him. Whether it be for false claims, or for change succession laws or anything else.

Ranks and Incomes

Income The currency in the game will be Florins, as the Reichmark is yet to be created. Starting/Promotion Income: Most players will start off as Viscounts, however for those who have carried over their characters rank and regions an appropriate title will be given with regards to the new game rules, and thus they'd collect the starting income of that respective ranks. Promotion incomes are given as one-off payments when you acquire a new rank. Royals Knight - 500 Florins Baron - 1,000 Florins Count - 1,500 Florins Prince - 2,000 Florins Duke - 2,500 Florins Archduke - 3,000 Florins King - 3,500 Florins Emperor - 4,000 Florins Scholars Scholar - 1,500 Florins Doctor - 2,000 Florins Merchants See here Yearly Income: This is the income you'll collect at the end of each in-game year, it can be changed dependant on a number of things, the figures below are just base rates. Royals Knight - 100 Florins Baron - 200 Florins Count - 300 Florins Prince - 400 Florins Duke - 600 Florins Archduke - 800 Florins King - 1,000 Florins Emperor - 1,500 Florins Royals also gain extra income from taxation, please see here for the full details. Scholars Scholar - 500 Florins Doctor - 750 Florins Merchants See here Ranks This section will explain the ranks, and how to be promoted. Royals See here Scholars Players will start off as a Scholar and it is the only class where players can embark upon personal quests. To rise to the rank of Doctor one must be appointed by a Duke or higher for a mod approved reason, or have gained the promotion through the rewards of a personal quest. To apply for a personal quest, detailing what you want to achieve, contact a mod who will set one and guide you through it. These quests are a great way to earn rewards such as skill points and traits, and be the most enjyable type of role-play. Merchants See here

[Gandalfus]

The king should really get the same or closer to an archduke.

[Jokern]

So they'll be as powerful as kings, yet they'll still serve within a kingdom.

I love it.

[Gandalfus]

Indeed, that's my job.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Me and M need to update the rules in regards to the removal of paths first.

[m_1512]

I will let Shankbot and/or LM make the call on this.

[Lucius Malfoy]

I do like these titles and I would like to see more titles given, thus more a variety in ambitions. I support this!

[Gandalfus]

Very well.

But no vetoing!

[Zeus Almighty]

VETO!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh wait gandalf said none of that lol. I actually do like it.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Well LM and the majority of mods support so if you really want them...