Could orcs have turned 'good'?

[LuckyPistol]

There have been evil men, dwarves, Eol the Dark Elf (not really evil, but hated other elves ), so I can't say there can't be good orcs. I think the better choice would be neutral orcs who act more like dwarves and don't affiliate with evil, but aren't the nicest guys around. It was already mentioned Tolkien was Catholic and therefore did not believe in irredeemable evil, and he gives negatives in each race in Middle Earth. I think there could have been some early orcs in the back of Tolkiens mind

[lolIsuck]

Ngugi has arrived, discussion is over.

[StealthFox]

Good post as usual Ngugi. I wasn't aware of letter 269. I love reading Tolkien's letter, but I don't have the published collection. I need to get it.

[Mikail Mengsk]

- due to Orcs origin they have fëa [soul] and a free will
- that this free will is so corrupted by Morgoths evil that it will not allow them to act in opposition to hate and wickedness (which is not contradictory while it might sound so at first)
- that above mentioned tainted free will unables them to redeem themselves
- that they can not be redeemed by other folks
- the only redemption possible lies in the hands of Eru Illuvatar

And this is something like a solid "no" to the thread's question.

[Tolan]

There is no such thing as good or evil. There is just a perspective of what is acceptable behavior and what is not. To the orcs the elves are evil. Orcs are treated as animals. In Tolkien's world, the elves would likely always massacre any survivors. I don't remember ever reading how the elves took orc hostages or treated any orc wounded. To an orc, an elf is a monster.

Which that said. I believe, with the right circumstances, one could change their perspective.

[Ngugi]

In this world there is as a proved and (so-so) present, all mighty God who created everything; the nihilistic approach is not applicable on this mythos.
Or if you want it simpler; Tolkien say they can't so they can't. If you want redeemable Orcs you have to read some other creations, like Warcraft or something.

[Tolan]

O.k. if we talk Tolkien. There is good and evil. My point is. In the orcs point of view, they do not need to be redeemed. The elves are evil. It is difficult to redeem yourself when you don't believe they are in need of it.

[brasswire]

O.k. if we talk Tolkien. There is good and evil. My point is. In the orcs point of view, they do not need to be redeemed. The elves are evil. It is difficult to redeem yourself when you don't believe they are in need of it.

I don't think this is true, you're still trying to look at it using a "real world" human lens.

I think we can see some clues in the way Saruman and Wormtongue are described. At Orthanc Saruman I believe realizes the wrong of what he's done, Tolkien describes him as being in anguish and doubt. He knows what he's done is wrong and he seriously considers Gandalf's offer of redemption. But in the end he is too far gone and is overcome by hatred, pride, self-loathing, and jealousy.

[Emrys]

That or the orcs realize that they are evil and relish the fact, kind of like some serial killers, and need to be eradicated.

[Mhaedros]

They know they are evil serialkillers