Could orcs have turned 'good'?

[MrExpendable]

While most of us know about the violent nature and hatred of all orckind towards other humanoid creatures in Middle Earth, I still think that this is a possible what-if scenario.

If an orc was born in an environment which would suppress his violent aspects (Rivendell perhaps), would that make him turn good-natured? And how would humans, elves and dwarves react towards such a creature? I personally think that they would be very suspicious of him, not to say filled with hatred regardless of his actions.

I'm interested in all of your personal opinions regarding this.

[Incredible Bulk]

No they created for evil from evil

[Arǭmēz]

Orcs came from Men and elves. corrupted and destroyed... though it is impossible to return into being men and elves I think that with the absence of evil they may slowly become more civilised..
We know they can learn as they learned the black speech and that they can form some sort of primeval society (Goblin town for example)
So maybe with the passing of years or rather ages Orcs might succeed into becoming more like men.

[Daddl]

In a lot of other fantasy worlds orcs are nearly the same like men - so yeah, the correct education and the respect of other races can turn the most creatures into a "good" one.

[StealthFox]

This has came up a few times before, so I'll copy and paste a previous post I made on the subject.

I don't think we can be certain that orcs and other such "evil" creatures could never become "good." I think Tolkien suggested some possibility for redemption for orcs. This can also be seen in a way with Saruman and Wormtongue.

On Orcs:
They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.) - Letter #153 [Emphasis added]

"It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom, for in their corruption they had almost lost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did the pressure on them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be...this servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs to an almost ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth’s chief Lieutenant." - HoME X: Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded. - HoME X, Morgoth's Ring [Emphasis added]

Also, do not forget about the rare glimpse of Orcs in Return of the King. Shagrat and Gorbag just wanted to get away from all the "big bosses."

On Saruman:
'Think well, Saruman! Will you not come down?"'
A shadow passed over Saruman's face; then it went deathly white. Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed. Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him. - "The Voice of Saruman", TTT

On Wormtongue:
'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.'
Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. - The Scouring of the Shire, RotK

[Incredible Bulk]

On Orcs:
[I]They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad./

So it would be unnatural for them to be good

[Ngugi]

On Orcs:
They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.) - Letter #153 [Emphasis added]

(...)

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded. - HoME X, Morgoth's Ring [Emphasis added]

StealthFox bring you essential quotes, which seems far to ignored in this debate.
Further we have:

[Auden had asked Tolkien if the notion of the Orcs, an entire race that was irredeemably wicked, was not heretical.]

With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190,1 where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin.
We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sons and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable.....
- Letter 269 to W.H Auden 1965 [yes, this is Tolkien full answer on the topic]

For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.
- Silmarillion; Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

But the Orcs were not of this kind.* They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their evil deeds. They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if Morgoth and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands. They sometimes fought [> They hated one another and often fought] among themselves, to the detriment of Morgoth's plans.
- Morgoth's Ring, Myths Trandformed, Text X
*mindless creations of Melkor [like Aulë's Dwarves before Eru accepted them]

Sauron indeed achieved greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nontheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them;

[footnote to the text] But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another.
- Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Text X

The best conclusion that may be given out of Tolkien's twists and different considerations (of which more I simply do not have energy to gather) has to be that

- due to Orcs origin they have fëa [soul] and a free will
- that this free will is so corrupted by Morgoths evil that it will not allow them to act in opposition to hate and wickedness (which is not contradictory while it might sound so at first)
- that above mentioned tainted free will unables them to redeem themselves
- that they can not be redeemed by other folks
- the only redemption possible lies in the hands of Eru Illuvatar


Edit:
Concerning

All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.

it has to be an example of exaggeration on behalf of epic storytelling. At best it could mean that some Orcs resisted Sauron on their own behalf in line with their hatefull nature, perhaps deserters fighting the others, but to say they in any way joined the Last Alliance will oppose everything Tolkien has written about Orcs and as not anything support the idea ever it can only be ruled out.
Further it then would have to mean trolls, wargs, dragons and werewolves etc join the LA, while giant Eagles and Ents (or the Entwifes, eh?) etc joined Sauron.
While the latter group is more credible all in all it do not add up with any (other) notes of JRR and thus it would be less in line with lore to percive it litterarly than to not.

[MrExpendable]

StealthFox bring you essential quotes, which seems far to ignored in this debate.
Further we have:
The best conclusion that may be given out of Tolkien's twists and different considerations (of which more I simply do not have energy to gather) has to be that

- due to Orcs origin they have fëa [soul] and a free will
- that this free will is so corrupted by Morgoths evil that it will not allow them to act in opposition to hate and wickedness (which is not contradictory while it might sound so at first)
- that above mentioned tainted free will unables them to redeem themselves
- that they can not be redeemed by other folks
- the only redemption possible lies in the hands of Eru Illuvatar


Edit:
Concerning

it has to be an example of exaggeration on behalf of epic storytelling. At best it could mean that some Orcs resisted Sauron on their own behalf in line with their hatefull nature, perhaps deserters fighting the others, but to say they in any way joined the Last Alliance will oppose everything Tolkien has written about Orcs and as not anything support the idea ever it can only be ruled out.
Further it then would have to mean trolls, wargs, dragons and werewolves etc join the LA, while giant Eagles and Ents (or the Entwifes, eh?) etc joined Sauron.
While the latter group is more credible all in all it do not add up with any (other) notes of JRR and thus it would be less in line with lore to percive it litterarly than to not.

Thank you Stealthfox and Ngugi, these posts answered my question well enough for me to draw a conclusion. And I think that counts for many others as well, seeing as the topic pretty much sank down the board.

[DrDragun]

Tolkien writes from a very dualistic philosophy of good/evil consistent with the mythology of Abrahamic monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), where pure good or pure evil exist in heroes and villains and entire races. In this case, the orcs are evil in their very nature of existence. In a lot of modern fantasy it is popular to have more "gritty realistic" and flawed characters with conflicting appeals (such as GRRM's Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones) although some recent popular fantasy writers still use a dualistic philosophy (Robert Jordan is kind of a mix).

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

There was a passage about the War of the Last Alliance which said that members of every race except the Elves fought on both sides, this could be interpreted as a statement about good Orcs.

[Mhaedros]

I'm pretty certain that's not the case

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I am sure of it.

• 
  
  • 
    
    • "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves, few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

[Keyser_Soze]

I am sure of it.

• 
  
  • 
    
    • "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves, few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

I think that passage was revised at some time. I remember a discussion of dwarves and if any of them were evil brought this up.

I've always viewed elves as the antithesis of orcs. Orcs are universally evil, while elves are universally good, though the actions of the Noldor in the first age seem to possibly cast doubt on this. However, post-first age, I cannot think of an example of any evil being done in the hands of elves.

As for the Gorbag-Shagrat discussion, I don't think that really suggests orcs to be capable of good, it just shows the will of Sauron was not absolute, and shows orcs to have capability of independent thought. However, I can think of no creations of Melkor which have shown themselves to make any good deeds of themselves.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I think that passage was revised at some time. I remember a discussion of dwarves and if any of them were evil brought this up.

I've always viewed elves as the antithesis of orcs. Orcs are universally evil, while elves are universally good, though the actions of the Noldor in the third age seem to cast doubt on this. However, post-first age, I cannot think of an example of any evil being done in the hands of elves.

As for the Gorbag-Shagrat discussion, I don't think that really suggests orcs to be capable of good, it just shows the will of Sauron was not absolute, and shows orcs to have capability of independent thought. However, I can think of no creations of Melkor which have shown themselves to make any good deeds of themselves.

You surely mean the First Age when talking about the Sons of Feanor

[SRACon17]

I am sure of it.

• 
  
  • 
    
    • "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves, few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

perhaps the orcs weren't mentioned there cause they basically came from the elves. haha dunno

[Wolfeson]

I am sure of it.

• 
  
  • 
    
    • "All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves, few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

I'm pretty sure this passage is incorrect in terms of later revisions. As a clear example, while true in the sense that all elves fought on the side of good, the quote about all Elves "undivided and followed Gil-galad" is clearly wrong in light of Oropher and his refusal to follow Gil-galad's orders.

[StealthFox]

So it would be unnatural for them to be good

But not irredeemably bad. There was still a chance, however small, that they could become good and do good deeds.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

But not irredeemably bad. There was still a chance, however small, that they could become good and do good deeds.

Remember Tolkien was a Catholic, he didn't believe in irredeemable evil.

[ThaDoews]

I read Silmarillion this summer and i'm really sure that somewhere in it, it says that SOME (A FEW) Orcs was not evil. It was before the destruction of Beleriand.

[FountainGuard]

There's probly a few that could've. I mean what if one out of the million orcs, didn't like being whipped and treated like orcs are, and he had no experience fighting against good. I think he would have second thoughts about staying with the orcs.