Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel

[ivan_the_terrible]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19492627

Some particularly interesting parts of the article:

The escalating numbers have fuelled demands from other Israelis for them to share the military burden.

This has been compounded by a decision by Israel's Supreme Court earlier this year which ruled exemptions on the basis of religious study were unconstitutional.

The Haredim, as the ultra-Orthodox are often known in Israel, are Israel's fastest growing Jewish population and currently account for about 10% of the country's population.

Large families with eight to 10 children are not uncommon - and by the 2030s, demographers believe one in five Israelis will be Haredi.

This year alone, it is estimated up to 8,000 ultra-Orthodox boys will turn 18. And where Ron lives, everyone is worried.

This is not an argument about pacifism. The point is that many ultra-Orthodox Jews believe passionately their place is in the yeshiva and not a secular institution like the army.

"We are continuing the way of the Bible," says one student. "The Jewish way, to be Jewish - this isn't just about genes or a nation, it's a religion. And the reason we are in Israel is because of the Jewish religion. Our right to live in Israel is because we are Jews.

"So what secular people should respect, and understand, is that what we are doing when we study in the yeshiva is giving us all a right to be here."

As I understand it, a large -- and rapidly growing -- portion of Israeli society expects to enjoy the benefits of their country without contributing. They prefer to let secular Israelis pick up their slack as they 'study' a collection of bronze-age texts in search of some transcendant meaning. And the irony is that this group is typically the most xenophobic and aggressively Zionist.

How is it that this hardline minority is allowed such sway in Israel, despite the courts' ruling earlier this year?


My opinion: unless this issue is addressed (i.e. the courts' ruling properly enforced and made policy), the problem will only get worse; these backward people will constitute 20% of the country in twenty years, and Israel will likely become even more hawkish than it is now. And therefore will be even less likely to compromise with Palestinians (this assuming there are even unoccupied Palestinians around in 20 years...).

[Armenum]

Demographically, it doesn't make sense for the Orthodox Jews to be spared from military service. On the other hand, their legitimate religious requirements should be respected or a viable alternative created. For example, providing alternative service to Jehovah's Witnesses in some countries.

[Condottiere 40K]

Actually, I was wondering that if this bunch of pacifists become the mainstream in Israel, wouldn't the country itself be just ripe to be knocked over by their neighbours and the population bomb in the Occupied Territories, since they are obviously not in the position to defend themselves.

[magpie]

I guess they are kind of religious hippies Ivan, Make love not war. Judging by their large families they are pretty good at the love part.
Do these people even bother to vote?

[ivan_the_terrible]

That's just it - they're not pacifists. They are the aggressive and religiously-driven kind of Zionists (as opposed to the secular Zionists) - they just prefer to let secular Israeli children to die for their country.

In practice the ultra-orthodox Jewish communities tend to be rather aggressively xenophobic. I even remember someone making a thread a while back about the abuse faced by Orthodox and Armenian priests in Jerusalem - a great deal of the younger Haredim seem to enjoy spitting on them. In short, not very pacifist or hippy-like at all, but rather narrow-minded and intolerant.

Do these people even bother to vote?

Good point, I'm not sure what the voter turn out is among them. Judging by the political reluctance to force them into service (the article mentions that one party left a coalition on these grounds), I would say their vote is significant enough. And this is when they're only 10%.

[sumskilz]

They are the aggressive and religiously-driven kind of Zionists (as opposed to the secular Zionists)

Wrong, Haredim oppose Zionism on religious grounds because they believe only God can return Israel to the Jews.

This little stunt made a lot of secular Israelis very angry:



EDIT: Dr. Aviezer Ravitzky from the The Encyclopedia of Judaism Vol 3

The anti-Zionist world-view of the ultra-orthodox groups Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidism perceives Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel as an anti-messianic act, conceived and born from sin. These groups vigorously deny the very legitimacy of the collective political return to the Holy Land and to Jewish sovereignty. For them, this is the handiwork of humans, violating the Jewish people's oath of political quietism.

In the words of the Midrash (as expounded by Rashi), the people were adjured not to return collectively to the Land of Israel by the exertion of physical force, nor to "rebel against the nations of the world," nor to "hasten the End." In short, they were required to wait for the heavenly, complete, miraculous, supernatural, and meta-historical redemption that is totally distinct from the realm of human endeavor. This waiting over two millennia manifests the very essence and singularity of the Jewish people, expressing their faith in divine providence, in the assurance of the prophets, and in messianic destiny.

[hellheaven1987]

There were several public attacks in Israel during past few months that were either linked or suspected to be linked to Ultra-Orthodox Jews, particularly many of them believe Zionism is BS and current Israel is illegal (so irony).

[SuperTechmarine]

There were several public attacks in Israel during past few months that were either linked or suspected to be linked to Ultra-Orthodox Jews, particularly many of them believe Zionism is BS and current Israel is illegal (so irony).

You deny Israel's illegality?

[Gromovnik]

Why should they fight when there's enough useful idiots to do that for them?

[Condottiere 40K]

Is that all they do, study religion all day long and have sex the rest of the time?

[sumskilz]

Is that all they do, study religion all day long and have sex the rest of the time?

Yep, a gift of the welfare state.

[Condottiere 40K]

Missionary Church of Kopimism



The Kopimi symbol



Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V


The Missionary Church of Kopimism (in Swedish Missionerande Kopimistsamfundet), founded by 19-year-old philosophy student Isak Gerson,[1] is a congregation of file sharers who believe that copying information is a sacred virtue.[2][3][4] The Church, based in Sweden, has been officially recognized by the Swedish Legal, Financial and Administrative Services Agency ("kammarkollegiet") as a religious community, after three application attempts.[1][5]
Gerson has denied any connection between the Church and filesharing site the Pirate Bay.[6]
Tenets

The followers of the religion are called Kopimists from copy me. A "Kopimist" or "Kopimist intellectual" is a person who has the philosophical belief that all information should be freely distributed and unrestricted. This philosophy opposes the monopolization of knowledge in all its forms, such as copyright, and encourages piracy of all types of media including music, movies, TV shows, and software.[7]
According to the church, "In our belief, communication is sacred."[2] No belief in gods or supernatural phenomena is mentioned on their web site. CTRL+C and CTRL+V, the computer shortcut keys for "Copy" and "Paste," are considered sacred symbols.
Kopimism made simple[8]:

• All knowledge to all
• The search for knowledge is sacred
• The circulation of knowledge is sacred
• The act of copying is sacred.

According to the Kopimist constitution [9] :

• Copying of information is ethically right.
• Dissemination of information is ethically right.
• Copymixing is a sacred kind of copying, moreso than the perfect, digital copying, because it expands and enhances the existing wealth of information
• Copying or remixing information communicated by another person is seen as an act of respect and a strong expression of acceptance and Kopimistic faith.
• The Internet is holy.
• Code is law.

On January 5, 2012, Kopimism was accepted by Sweden as a legitimate religion. The religion's association with illegal file sharing[where?] has been said not to be a sign that illegal file-sharing will be excused from Sweden's zero-tolerance approach to the matter.[1]
First wedding

On April 28th, 2012, the Missionary Church of Kopimism held their first wedding.[10] The wedding took place in Belgrade, Serbia, between a Romanian woman and an Italian man. The holy ceremony was conducted by a man wearing a Guy Fawkes mask whose voice was distorted by a voice modulator.
The church said, "We are very happy today. Love is all about sharing. A married couple share everything with each other. Hopefully, they will copy and remix some DNA-cells and create a new human being. That is the spirit of Kopimism. Feel the love and share that information. Copy all of its holiness."
The missionary leader of the Church of Kopimism, Isak Gerson, attended as a witness during the wedding.




I look forward to when this church becomes state sponsored, since that means I get to surf all day and watch porn all night.

[SuperTechmarine]

*sigh* Not again.

[nein]

are those the guys who grow those disgusting ringlets? They should be conscripted into the army on principal...

[Orko]

As I understand it, a large -- and rapidly growing -- portion of Israeli society expects to enjoy the benefits of their country without contributing. They prefer to let secular Israelis pick up their slack as they 'study' a collection of bronze-age texts in search of some transcendant meaning. And the irony is that this group is typically the most xenophobic and aggressively Zionist.

They are actually the least Zionist group. Zionism started out secular, and was seen as a deviation since it expects humans to do the work by themselves rather than expecting God to tell us why. Some of them are Zionist, but not aggressively so.

I guess they are kind of religious hippies Ivan, Make love not war. Judging by their large families they are pretty good at the love part.
Do these people even bother to vote?

Well, you clearly don't understand much about them. Over 90% of them vote. And it's not about love; having children is a Mitzvha by the Torah, Pru u'Rvu. And there is nothing pacifist about their ideology.

[issler]

Everyone has to serve, period. You shouldn't be exempt of it just because you're orthodox.. Go be a chaplain or a paramedic or a cook or something, but no one should be simply exempt.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Israel is not illegal.They were given land to live on by Britain.
They just went on to take more cake than they should have

[SuperTechmarine]

Israel is not illegal.They were given land to live on by Britain.
They just went on to take more cake than they should have

They were given land formally owned by Palestine. Whats worse they didnt even ask.

[Rome101]

They were given land formally owned by Palestine.

You do realize that "Palestine" was not (and is still not) a country or organization, or any other body capable of "owning" land... right?

The land was formally owned by the British, unformally owned by also the British and internationally recognized as formally/unformally/practically/magically/any-other-adjective-you'd-like-to-use, British.

[issler]

Zionism is not bad.. It simply states jews have the right to a state in Israel. How could this be a bad thing?