Independence as Tokugawa?

[Vindigo]

So I took Owari, fortified it and started grabbing whatever territiories I could from Satomi, Hojo and Ashina. A few years in, Tokugawa and Imagawa are the strongest bloc by quite a bit, but now I have to ask: when am I 'allowed' to rebel without massive diplomatic penalities? Is the 'declaring war on them will harm all other relations' not going away because of indefinite military access? And will they turn on me if the Shogun declares me an enemy?

[Good ole Reb]

I recently started a Tokugawa campaign and didn't have to wait long for Imagawa to declare war on me, IIRC. So I never reallt had to face that dilemma

To answer your question, as long as you are their vassal an attack by you will incur the diplomatic penalties.

[Vindigo]

I recently started a Tokugawa campaign and didn't have to wait long for Imagawa to declare war on me, IIRC. So I never reallt had to face that dilemma

Really, they can attack you whenever they want? Good thing they're Dependable in mine.

[oppaiO_O]

i always attack imagawa the second turn

[Nicolaos]

i always attack imagawa the second turn

Same here. I always take out the Oda threat. As Soon as the North is secure i move South to get rid of the Imagawa

[MJWilliams]

If you hide your army in the forest near Mikkawa, the province will look totally unguarded and ripe for the taking. Imagawa will covet it and hopefully declare war on you, march in then: ambush! I know on VH/L this isn't an issue as every time I've played Tokugawa on those difficulties, Imagawa throw a DoW on me within a year

[Vindigo]

If you hide your army in the forest near Mikkawa, the province will look totally unguarded and ripe for the taking. Imagawa will covet it and hopefully declare war on you, march in then: ambush! I know on VH/L this isn't an issue as every time I've played Tokugawa on those difficulties, Imagawa throw a DoW on me within a year

I'm playing on Normal so I guess they'll never betray me. Most of my provinces are unguarded and Imagawa won't do a thing. Which I guess is a bit of a problem because now I'm stuck with them till diplomacy no longer matters. Expecting an epic showdown in the late game.

[Man'o'War]

My first campaign was as Tokugawa and fortunately I didn't now how to play.

The second I realised I was someone elses lackey I went all out to destroy my overseers. Telling me who I can and can't attack! Sheesh, the nerve of these people! It was a kind of personal pride thing, I was gutted I'd been paying someone else money. They had to go.... sharpish.

I spent most of the game with an honour of one I think and had to juggle with chi arts iirc to keep people happy.

The thing is, you're going to have to turn on them one day regardless and you can't prevent it hurting other diplomatic relations. It's a bit like a tooth ache, you can only put up with it for so long before going to the dentist.

[Himster]

Never attack your liege lord, that is a great dishonour which will never leave. On harder difficulties the Imagawa will attack you quite early on. On easy difficulties attack them after realm-divide so then the dishonour doesn't matter.
You could also try to entice them to attack with threats and silly demands so their respect for you drops so low that they will attack, then you don't lose honour.

[Samuel Pidgeon]

Maybe you could use a monk to start a rebellion somewhere and if rebels do appear and take the land then take it from them saves you declaring war on imagawa it's also annoying that the shogun won't say that some of the other clans are a enemy of the state and ask you to destroy them like it did in one of my campaigns

[zhiphius]

So I took Owari, fortified it and started grabbing whatever territiories I could from Satomi, Hojo and Ashina. A few years in, Tokugawa and Imagawa are the strongest bloc by quite a bit, but now I have to ask: when am I 'allowed' to rebel without massive diplomatic penalities? Is the 'declaring war on them will harm all other relations' not going away because of indefinite military access? And will they turn on me if the Shogun declares me an enemy?

You can "rebell" anytime you want, the game never ever stops you from doing so. (just declare war against them).

HOWEVER...... rebelling vs imagawa will give you a point of dishonour and a diplomatic penalty to all other clans. So consider the consequences.

You can of course use other tactics to break of the vassalship.

1: piss imagawa off enough through sabotage, killing agents/generals etc so they declare war on you and receive the penalty instead.

2: sabotage/incite revolt them to hell, grab the now free rebel provinces.

3: move into a position where you and usurp the shogunate (aka conquer kyoto) prepearing for RD beforehand, in which imagawa will join the rest of the bunch and declare war.


if you lack money for agents: use your metsukes to raise tax income, and spec em for "oversee town" for a bigger bonus. Oh and research the reduce cost/increased chance arts.

as tokugawa i generally only go for fire arrows and "heaven and earth" in bushido while focusing on economic/agent arts in the chi tree. (although i take further bushido arts after im done with the chi arts i want.)

[fkizz]

I usually just attack the Imagawa, if you wait they start getting way too big stacks.