Fireworks and missiles thrown at police lines in north Belfast

[PointOfViewGun]

Fireworks and missiles thrown at police lines in north Belfast

The police moved in after a crowd of around 200 people gathered in the Denmark Street area on Tuesday - there have been no reports of any injuries.

It is the third night of trouble in the area which erupted as a result of tension surrounding a parades dispute.

More than 60 police officers have been injured and seven hospitalised during the disturbances.

On Tuesday, a senior police officer challenged politicians to sort out the parades issue before someone is killed.

Assistant Chief Constable Will Kerr was speaking after a second night of violence - believed to be mainly loyalist - in north Belfast.

ACC Kerr said he feared someone would be killed unless the violence in the Carlisle Circus area stopped.

On Monday night, petrol bombs, bricks, fireworks and stones were thrown at police. A van was hijacked and pushed into police lines.

Mark Simpson BBC Ireland Correspondent

The outbreak of violence is a stark reminder that parts of Belfast are still heavily divided.

The so-called peace walls - more than 40 of them - which keep Catholics and Protestants apart are a concrete monument to Northern Ireland's bitter history.

The spark for the trouble in north Belfast was a parades dispute.

This is no surprise.

The marching issue remains the biggest thorn in the side of the peace process.

It's pretty serious as they're willing to use basically Molotov cocktails over a parade dispute. And, there are actual physical walls to separate Catholics and Protestants... They're called peace walls...

So, if these walls were not there these two Christian communities would be at their throat just because of a parade?

[Stavroforos]

Wasn't there some hubub a few days ago when Protestants marched on a Catholic church or something? God, Britain, we get it, you hate Catholics.

[Caelifer_1991]

Wasn't there some hubub a few days ago when Protestants marched on a Catholic church or something? God, Britain, we get it, you hate Catholics.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

[Stavroforos]

I hope you're being sarcastic.

No, I'm sure it happened, I saw pictures of police and everything trying to contain the Protestants. It couldn't have been more than a week or two ago.

[Comrade_Rory]

Wouldn't be a problem if Ireland was Irish

[Lazzeer]

Wouldn't be a problem if Ireland was Irish

It was loyalists rioting, so it'd actually probably be worse.

[Comrade_Rory]

It was loyalists rioting, so it'd actually probably be worse.

Would never have been an issue in the first place if England had never invaded though or if Britain had given Northern Ireland over with the rest of the country, then it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue now.

[Caelifer_1991]

Would never have been an issue in the first place if England had never invaded though or if Britain had given Northern Ireland over with the rest of the country, then it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue now.

Why would we have handed over Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, when the North voted to stay with us?

[Comrade_Rory]

Why would we have handed over Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, when the North voted to stay with us?

Because it's a part of Ireland. It was hardly a fair vote. The only reason the vote to remain part of the UK won was because business owners were given multiple votes and many of the business owners were there due to British control. It was hardly a fair vote and there was a lot of gerrymandering going on and persecution of the Catholics to strengthen the unionist position.

[Lazzeer]

Would never have been an issue in the first place if England had never invaded though or if Britain had given Northern Ireland over with the rest of the country, then it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue now.

Yeah but it did happen, so that doesn't really help us now.

Besides, if Northern Ireland had gone to the Free State in 1921 it's not that there wouldn't have been any issues/problems, it's just that it would be Ireland dealing with it instead of the UK. Northern Ireland opted out, so there were a bunch of angry nationalists. If Northern Ireland had been given to the Free State there would just have been a bunch of angry unionists.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Wow, lot's of nationalist propaganda to clean up here.

Wouldn't be a problem if Ireland was Irish

Firstly, this is utter speculation. Secondly, it doesn't make sense - why would Northern Ireland suddenly become totally peaceful if it was a part of the Republic and the majority of the population of Northern Ireland then wanted to be a separate state? Why would it remove the non-political motivations - the sheer stupidity of sectarian conflict?

Thirdly, and finally, your view is anti-historical. At the turn of the century the British Government wanted to put Northern Ireland under home rule with the rest of the island. However, the Protestants objected to this. They formed an army that was incredibly well equipped (artillery, armoured cars) and had huge support. The British army faced officers and rank and file soldiers unwilling to fight the protestants as they sympathised with them - and after all, weren't they just being punished for being patriotic compared to the secessionist who were given everything they wanted by London? For a time, it looked like Civil War in the UK was very likely and indeed this emboldened the Kaiser in Germany.

In the event, no conflict happened because of the break out of World War I. Ulster protestants suffered some of the worst losses at the Battle of the Somme. They sacrificed pretty much an entire generation. Compared to this nationalists continued to assault British troops and offered barely disguised support and sympathy to Germany. This made it politically impossible for London to hand Northern Ireland over to Dublin - the sacrifice of the Ulster Brigades and the continued violence of the nationalists had caused Dublin to lose the six provinces forever.

It was loyalists rioting, so it'd actually probably be worse.

Actually it was both, with the poor police getting brutalised trying to protect them from themselves. Maniacs.

Would never have been an issue in the first place if England had never invaded though or if Britain had given Northern Ireland over with the rest of the country, then it probably wouldn't be as much of an issue now.

This is very unhelpful. Why don't you go further and blame it on Germany? After all it would have never been an issue if the Anglo-Saxons hadn't of invaded Roman Britain. In fact why don't we go further and blame it on Italy? After all it wouldn't have been an issue if the Romans hadn't invaded the Brythonic Kingdoms. IN FACT WHY DON'T WE GO FURTHER AND BLAME IT ON WHATEVER PRIMATE FIRST LEFT THE MOTHER ING TREES?!

Because it's a part of Ireland. It was hardly a fair vote. The only reason the vote to remain part of the UK won was because business owners were given multiple votes and many of the business owners were there due to British control. It was hardly a fair vote and there was a lot of gerrymandering going on and persecution of the Catholics to strengthen the unionist position.

And this is a pure lie. Caelifer is referring to the referendum of 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norther...ferendum,_1973

This was an utterly fair vote, knows where you got your business vote thing from. The Catholics almost utterly boycotted the vote but that's irrelevant since the support for staying in the UK reached just under 60% regardless.

Do you respect democracy or not, Rory?

Even more important was the overwhelming support given for putting your brand of nationalistic suicide behind us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norther...ferendum,_1998

I can't remember the exact details

Surprise surprise.

[Comrade_Rory]

*snip*

You can spin it anyway you want but at the end of the day, it's rightfully Irish land.

If Ireland had for some reason (and in some possible way) invaded... I dunno, Cornwall? and then started kicking around the native population, treating them like crap and then replacing them with Irish people.
Are you saying that it's entirely fair that they keep that land?

[removeduser_487563287433]

You can spin it anyway you want but at the end of the day, it's rightfully Irish land.

That's just the sort of moronic nationalism that murdered God knows how many and still resulted in a British Northern Ireland, because it was Britain that in the end had the courage of its democratic convictions.

If Ireland had for some reason (and in some possible way) invaded... I dunno, Cornwall? and then started kicking around the native population, treating them like crap and then replacing them with Irish people.
Are you saying that it's entirely fair that they keep that land?

Did I not sufficiently explain that I think your illegal irredentist stupidity being based on the events of half a thousand years ago is so dribblingly retarded that I shite on the very idea of it?

[Comrade_Rory]

That's just the sort of moronic nationalism that murdered God knows how many and still resulted in a British Northern Ireland, because it was Britain that in the end had the courage of its democratic convictions.

Gerrymandering and giving multiple votes to business owners in Northern Irelamd went on until the end of the 60's, whereas such acts were stopped in Britain in the 40s. Meaning that Northern Ireland for some reason was a separate case. Could it be because there may have been a possibility that the original vote went against a unionist northern Ireland?
Also, not all Ulster provinces were counts. Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan were conveniently excluded from the vote and were known for having large catholic populations.

Did I not sufficiently explain that I think your illegal irredentist stupidity being based on the events of half a thousand years ago is so dribblingly retarded that I shite on the very idea of it?

Although the invasions happened a long time ago, the persecution of Catholics and nationalists went on well into modern times.

[IZob]

...

Did I not sufficiently explain that I think your illegal irredentist stupidity being based on the events of half a thousand years ago is so dribblingly retarded that I shite on the very idea of it?

I love how Ferrets restores sanity to the PM threads

[ivan_the_terrible]

I like the OP's subtle framing of the thread. 'These two Christian communities'. Read: oh look, there is sectarian unrest in the West too!

[PointOfViewGun]

Business owners were given multiple votes?

[Comrade_Rory]

Business owners were given multiple votes?

Something along those lines, yeah.

I can't remember the exact details and I'd do some googling but it's 4am

[s.rwitt]

Business owners were given multiple votes?

Yes, they were. In fact the mayor of Derry received 6 votes for each of the businesses he owned, plus one for himself, putting him at 43 votes personally. Also, although the city was 70% Catholic, it was divided into three voting districts, one containing the Catholics which got 8 representatives, and the other two being the two Protestant areas containing 30% of the population between them...they received 8 representatives each. This was the situation as late as the 70's IIRC.

At least that's what John Hume said in this documentary I happened to be watching tonight.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24xhetrvhk

[PointOfViewGun]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Seems to be fitting for the case of the vote...