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  1. #1

    Default Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Balon Greyjoy was a terrible, terrible King. Aside from his first Rebellion which was a silly idea, his rebellion during the War of the Five Kings was soooooooooooooooooooooooo badly done.

    Robb Stark had promised him his crown if he joined ranks with him. A fair deal. He could attack the richer, most vulnerable, and more hated Lannisters and get his crown and everything and be remembered as a great liberator.

    But the Greyjoys "do not sow" or whatever. They don't have their crown handed to them! They take what is their's! So instead, they go to raid the North in a surprise assault that takes a bunch of cities and is fairly successful. But they can't hold the North. It's far too large and spread out. As soon as Moat Cailin fell, which was inevitable as well because Ramsay Snow was in the North with at least 500 men (I forget the exact number) and could crush them if they were coordinated an attack from the South, but whatever.

    Anyway, after this spectacle of tactical brilliance, they turn around to ask the Lannisters for their crown in exchange for helping with the North. To which they get no reply because Tywin Lannister is very intelligent. So what was the point of it all? Instead of getting their crown from the North, they just turned around and asked for it from the South. GENIUS, I say.

    As if that wasn't bad enough, they have no follow-up plan for what to do later, after they've gotten themselves into the North. They should've sacked all the Northern cities and left after they realized the Lannisters weren't going to give them their crown (and then bent the knee). Instead they decided to just chill in Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, etc. WHY?! What were they hoping to accomplish? Annoying the North until Roose Bolton brought an army to their doorstep?

    Hell, they left the heir to the Iron Isles and the last son of Balon Greyjoy to his death in Winterfell. What the were they thinking?! They should've stayed with him or made him come back to someplace safer. Or at last done something other than leave him to die. (Obviously he didn't die but was captured instead, but it was like a 90% chance he was going to die.

    He made so many errors it's just ridiculous. It's little wonder half the people at the Kingsmoot were demanding peace.

  2. #2
    Lord AcidRocker's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Robb Stark had promised him his crown if he joined ranks with him. A fair deal. He could attack the richer, most vulnerable, and more hated Lannisters and get his crown and everything and be remembered as a great liberator.
    This is not how the Ironborn do it. He wouldn't have gotten the same support from his kin if he did this. This idea was not even an option in their books

    So instead, they go to raid the North in a surprise assault that takes a bunch of cities and is fairly successful. But they can't hold the North. It's far too large and spread out.
    They never knew that Balon would die so soon and that they would have to call back all their forces. They had a good plan, after all. Moat Cailin was the key to holding the North and fending off southern invaders, especially Robb Stark trying to re-claim his kingdom. If he did come back though, and he went according to his original strategy to take back Moat Cailin, Victarion Greyjoy would have given him a hell of a fight and who knows who would win.




    Anyway, after this spectacle of tactical brilliance, they turn around to ask the Lannisters for their crown in exchange for helping with the North. To which they get no reply because Tywin Lannister is very intelligent.
    I agree with you on this one. Big hypocrisy by the Ironborn here. However, IIRC all they wanted was an alliance and someone to map the new borders for the Ironborn's kingdom, implicating that they were independent from the Iron Throne.



    They should've sacked all the Northern cities and left after they realized the Lannisters weren't going to give them their crown (and then bent the knee). Instead they decided to just chill in Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, etc. WHY?! What were they hoping to accomplish? Annoying the North until Roose Bolton brought an army to their doorstep?
    I agree here too. Asha Greyjoy also figured this when the Crow's Eye became king; Euron just forgot about the North and didn't really give them instructions for anything to do. If I were Asha, I would have left deepwood, taking all its valuables (if it even had any) and head south. However, she had a betrothed waiting for him in the Iron Isles which she had no intention of meeting.

    Hell, they left the heir to the Iron Isles and the last son of Balon Greyjoy to his death in Winterfell. What the were they thinking?! They should've stayed with him or made him come back to someplace safer. Or at last done something other than leave him to die. (Obviously he didn't die but was captured instead, but it was like a 90% chance he was going to die.
    Daddy issues poor Theon. Asha wanted to bring him back, but since he was Prince at the time, it's not like it was her choice.

    For the record: Balon was a cool and authoritative king. I liked him (in a dark Ironborn way), but I personally don't agree with Ironborn values

  3. #3
    Mount Suribachi's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Yeah, I don't get the love for the Ironborn - just a bunch of murdering, plundering, rapists if you ask me. With a bit of luck they'll all starve to death during the Long Night.
    Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you - Littlefinger

  4. #4

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi View Post
    Yeah, I don't get the love for the Ironborn - just a bunch of murdering, plundering, rapists if you ask me. With a bit of luck they'll all starve to death during the Long Night.
    I kind of like the idea of "We do not sow" and "We take what is our's" in a romanticized sort of way. But the Iron Born took that interesting perspective on life and turned it into a constant fest of raping and sacking and slaughtering. Then they seem shocked and appalled when Robert has the same done to the Iron Isles.

  5. #5
    Karazor's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    don't forget that heir millitary power is weack as compared to the 20k men the other houses of westeros like lannister north wtf did they expect in the olden day they managed to establish a kingdom in the riverlands beacause the riverlands was split into petty kings , they big strength is the fleet with wich they could have blocked lannisport and raid the westerlands that were so much richer together with rob they had a big chance

  6. #6

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    I like the Ironborn, but they're badly written

    Their existence, just doesn't really make sense. If they're so unruly, to keep on raiding, how did they make it all this way ? If i were King, i would have exterminated em long ago or i would have prohibited them owning ships. It just doesn't make sense. Why would someone let a bunch of raiders/pirates, keep their ways, right in his back yard ? They even take saltwives and thralls, in a realm that slavery is considered a major tabboo

    It would have made more sense, if they were from a far away land or something. GrrM, was a bit overzealous n sloppy on this
    Last edited by Noobio; September 04, 2012 at 02:20 AM.


  7. #7
    Mikail Mengsk's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    I mostly agree with Karakoran: Balon's strategy doesn't seem viable. But attacking Casterly Rock wasn't either: the ironborns doesn't use siege engines, so it would have never fell.
    It's only after you have lost everything, that you are free to do anything.

  8. #8
    Karazor's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikail Mengsk View Post
    I mostly agree with Karakoran: Balon's strategy doesn't seem viable. But attacking Casterly Rock wasn't either: the ironborns doesn't use siege engines, so it would have never fell.
    yes of course attacking casterly rock would have been a bad idea, but they would have been effective as Gregor to scorch the land since Rob didn't have the stomach for that. , and later in the war would have been essential against the Reach they could have deafeted the redwine fleet i 'm sure of that and then blockade oldtown and the river that led to HIghgarden as they did in the recent books

  9. #9
    Prophet1331's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karakoran View Post
    Balon Greyjoy was a terrible, terrible King. Aside from his first Rebellion which was a silly idea, his rebellion during the War of the Five Kings was soooooooooooooooooooooooo badly done.

    Robb Stark had promised him his crown if he joined ranks with him. A fair deal. He could attack the richer, most vulnerable, and more hated Lannisters and get his crown and everything and be remembered as a great liberator.


    [COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]That is a good strategy in the mod where the Starks remain in the north, in the books however the Westerlands still had Lefford's army lurking about and levies were gathering at Lannisport, while the North had most of it's men taken south and were caught up in the fighting. Also the nOrth can be defended easily from Moat Cailin but the Westerlands are hard to defend from all sides.[COLOR]


    But the Greyjoys "do not sow" or whatever. They don't have their crown handed to them! They take what is their's! So instead, they go to raid the North in a surprise assault that takes a bunch of cities and is fairly successful. But they can't hold the North. It's far too large and spread out. As soon as Moat Cailin fell, which was inevitable as well because Ramsay Snow was in the North with at least 500 men (I forget the exact number) and could crush them if they were coordinated an attack from the South, but whatever.

    Moat Cailin's fall was inevitable not because of Ramsay's great military skill or the valor of his men, but because the Ironborn were alone and nobody gived a damn if they died or not, they were abandoned in the North when Victarion left with his men from Moat Cailin living behind a small army.

    Anyway, after this spectacle of tactical brilliance, they turn around to ask the Lannisters for their crown in exchange for helping with the North. To which they get no reply because Tywin Lannister is very intelligent. So what was the point of it all? Instead of getting their crown from the North, they just turned around and asked for it from the South. GENIUS, I say.


    Robb was already losing the war. Balon probably thought, like most lords, that Robb will fall before the war was done because he was an ambitious boy still young. Also the offer came up after Balon was starting to see how big the North was and more importantly after the Blackwater. He suddenly had to keep his crown in the face of the Lannisters, the Tyrells and everyone else who supported Joffre's claim. Balon would have sent the offer regardless who got the throne after a time.
    Thing is Balon became a big player after taking the North. He came to the negotiating table as a proven leader with half the North captured and the posibility to strike south as well using his fleet. He came to the table as an equal player rather than an ambitious lord with poor small lands and no victory in the war.

    He wasn't handed the crown now like Robb would have done at the beginning, he was having it confirmed. It's a difference. It's like getting a medal without doing anything rather than getting a medal for proving yourself. It's the Ironborn pride taking effect.


    As if that wasn't bad enough, they have no follow-up plan for what to do later, after they've gotten themselves into the North. They should've sacked all the Northern cities and left after they realized the Lannisters weren't going to give them their crown (and then bent the knee). Instead they decided to just chill in Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, etc. WHY?! What were they hoping to accomplish? Annoying the North until Roose Bolton brought an army to their doorstep?

    Balon probably had some plans for the future but he died before he could do anything. Euron had a different plan in mind which didn't involve the North. So he charged south abandoning the troops in the North (which he probably though were loyal to either Asha or Victarion or Aeron and would have been a nuisance to him).

    Hell, they left the heir to the Iron Isles and the last son of Balon Greyjoy to his death in Winterfell. What the were they thinking?! They should've stayed with him or made him come back to someplace safer. Or at last done something other than leave him to die. (Obviously he didn't die but was captured instead, but it was like a 90% chance he was going to die.


    Theon was commanded to raid the Stoney Shore, taking Winterfell was his own plan. We don't get to see Balon's opinion on his son's action unfortunately. Then Theon's pride kicked in and didn't want to come back when ASha came to convince him to go back, he didn't want to live in her shadow the rest of the war.The Ironborn were never an honorable people so Asha fled rather than die a heroic death at her brother's side.

    On the other hand Balon probably wanted to have Asha his heir and sent her to Deepwood which was safer to hold while still important. In a way he did protect the heir he wanted.


    He made so many errors it's just ridiculous. It's little wonder half the people at the Kingsmoot were demanding peace.


    I don't think it's about errors as much as how you see things. The Ironborn way was to attack whoever was least protected and raid them. The north and the Reach later. I like how the Ironborn are good sailors and hardy warriors good with an axe (yes, I like axes as much as Shagga) from a harsh land but the raiding and pillaging is only good in war. Rodrik the Reader is probably the most sane Ironborn, because he understood how the Old Way is dead. I'm pretty sure in the end most Ironborn will die and the Old Way with them, while still keeping the hardy warriors alive. Their strategies are based on the Old Way, if you take that out of the equation you would have a good player in the game of Thrones. Look at Euron, he is Ironborn but not a fanatic of the Drowned God, and he's becoming an important figure in teh fate of Westeros.
    Last edited by Prophet1331; September 04, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
    Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Tywin Lannister

  10. #10

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    I would have swallowed my pride, ignored Robb and raided the Lannisters anyway.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    "No one hands me a crown, I'll take my crown.....now Theon, Asha and Victarion you go win my war while I stay at Pyke and do nothing." -King of the Iron Islands, the North and Hypocrisy Balon Greyjoy

  12. #12

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Yeah lol...
    "I will pay the iron price! Well, you will, I will just chill at Pyke cause I am too old"

  13. #13

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Balon was a fool he was too caught up on revenge the North would never stay his but also mainly was Theon stupid. I'd place Balon's choice on Theon more than anything. Theon show's up expecting and demanding much - which he shouldn't have. He should've played it out differently, the Ironborn aren't as bad as you all seem to think they have honour and respect in their own way, if Theon understood his people better he could've manipulated them better into his cause, or failing that Drown his dad in some sea water.


    I don't get your hate for the IronBorn, Victarion is one of the best characters. They clearly come frome one of the worst places around but that just makes them damn tough. They have honour, respect as I said like the kingsmoot which is more forward thinking than any other kingdom. They pillage out of necessity. AND they're just like vikings, they fight well and then they party. Sounds good to me with a chance of plunder.

    Whoever said their ships should be prohibited, that's just stupid. They live on an ISLAND . And they haven't been wiped out either through skill at arms and the fact islands are hard to besiege or because like in Roberts case he didn't feel like genociding a whole island group.


    Also as a last note he wasn't needed to take casterly rock but Lannisport because it had a port like say with oldtown later on in the books they could blockade it or just sail in and take it - no sea defence for Lannisport and the general coastal harrying would've slowed any new armies forming and split their forces even more - it might have led to a surrender for all we know.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Patriarch View Post
    Whoever said their ships should be prohibited, that's just stupid. They live on an ISLAND . And they haven't been wiped out either through skill at arms and the fact islands are hard to besiege or because like in Roberts case he didn't feel like genociding a whole island group.
    Why would anyone let em have warships and continue raiding merchant ships and coastal settlements, kidnapping or killing other lords smallfolk ?

    What happened to the "King's peace" ? It just doesn't make sense

    Also, why would Balon rise into rebellion against Robert ? What was he doing during the Usurper's war ? They just stayed neutral. Wouldn't they have more chances of separating from the throne if they had sided with Robert against the Targaryens earlier ?

    The whole Ironborn existence and recent history, just doesn't make sense as it is presented
    Last edited by Noobio; September 04, 2012 at 06:54 AM.


  15. #15
    Prophet1331's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noobas View Post
    Also, why would Balon rise into rebellion against Robert ? What was he doing during the Usurper's war ? They just stayed neutral. Wouldn't they have more chances of separating from the throne if they had sided with Robert against the Targaryens earlier ?
    To quote the Greatjon "It was the dragons we bowed down too..." Once Robert took the throne I'm pretty sure there were allot of people thinking about splitting the kingdom apart. Balon being a proud and free willed Ironborn was the first to try and go for it. The only problem was that most major lords found politics more useful than swords, geting to rule everyone through political skill rather than conquering a kingdom at a time.
    Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens. Tywin Lannister

  16. #16

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet1331 View Post
    To quote the Greatjon "It was the dragons we bowed down too..." Once Robert took the throne I'm pretty sure there were allot of people thinking about splitting the kingdom apart. Balon being a proud and free willed Ironborn was the first to try and go for it. The only problem was that most major lords found politics more useful than swords, geting to rule everyone through political skill rather than conquering a kingdom at a time.
    And because his rebellion was crushed so successfully that no one dared try again. Their fleet was utterly smashed and when they sacked the Iron Isles as a show of force there was few others who dared try to test him. Besides, who else would rebel? Dorne and the Reach were the only areas not bound to Robert in some fashion, direct or indirect. They weren't going to win if they revolted, and they weren't going to try when the Iron Isles were crushed.

  17. #17
    Mount Suribachi's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archon Patriarch View Post
    I don't get your hate for the IronBorn, Victarion is one of the best characters. They clearly come frome one of the worst places around but that just makes them damn tough. They have honour, respect as I said like the kingsmoot which is more forward thinking than any other kingdom. They pillage out of necessity. AND they're just like vikings, they fight well and then they party. Sounds good to me with a chance of plunder.
    The Starks come from a pretty tough place too, but they are the most honourable of all. Or the Mormonts, a people who like the Greyjoys come from a cold, remote island but still manage to eke out an honourable living without resorting to rape, pillage, murder, raiding, kidnapping and slavery.

    And I'm less than impressed by their fighting prowess. They're opportunists, just like the Vikings were. They use surprise and numbers to prey on the weak and defenceless. They rarely draw themselves up to face their enemies in a decisive battle in a "fair" fashion. Of course, war isn't fair, but surprising and taking castles defended by a handful of children and old men doesn't make you great warriors.
    Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you - Littlefinger

  18. #18

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    I would just ignore Robb for a while, declare myself king, leave casterly rock but sack cities like Lannistport and Oldtown, and ravage the westerlands capturing not well fortified but rich castles.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    I agree. The first thing I would do is pull a Walder, invite all the ironborn to dinner and kill them all.

  20. #20
    achudnow's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Balon Greyjoy Perhaps the Worst King Ever?

    The point of Balon's two rebellions wasn't so he could crown himself King, it was to bring back the Old Way. I never understood his first rebellion, done when the whole rest of the realm was at peace and united, but still. You make it sound like they've been raiding and taking salt wives during the whole three-hundred year Targaryen (and recently Baratheon) rule in Westeros, but that's just the point, they haven't been. They've been stuck on the Islands, mining and farming what little they can, poor as because they can't raid or they'd bring the wrath of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms down on their heads. Until now.

    I do agree with a lot of the rest, however. Regardless of his pride, Balon could have just turned Robb down, yet raided the Westerlands anyway. No need to accept a crown from a boy, but why raid the North when you could raid the vastly richer Westerlands? Makes little sense. Robb's wording, "Give you a crown", was bad to begin with, but again, Balon could have just refused and raided wherever he pleased, yet he chose the poor, spread-out, lightly populated North. Strategical and even tactical issues asside, what was the point? Like Asha said during the Kingsmoot, all they had to show for their trouble were pine-cones and acorns.

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