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Thread: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

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  1. #1
    NobleNick's Avatar Artifex
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    Default In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    The purpose of this post is to provide a link, so that I do not get writer's cramp trying to re-defend the all-cav force every time another post pops up wondering if it is a viable option. All-cav forces can typically beat extraordinarily larger forces, as long as a few simple rules are followed. I will give those rules, below, and then give a pictorial journey into a few battles, to illustrate.

    To those who would say, after reading the below, that the battle results I have posted are a fluke; I say this: These tactics have CONSISTENTLY worked WONDERFULLY for me in literally over a hundred battles covering all the following cases:

    HARD setting, as the Gauls, against every faction, except Egypt and some other small Eastern factions. Light cav also gives excellent results.

    HARD setting, as Carthaginians, using Sacred Band cavalry against Barbarians, mostly Gaul.

    HARD setting, as Scipii, using Equites and/or Legionary Cavalry against virtually every faction.

    VERY HARD setting, as Greek Cities, using mostly generals' cav, against the Romans.

    EXCEPTIONS: Light cav has a tough time against forces with lots of heavy cav and gets creamed by heavy chariots (so Britons and Egypt can be a problem). Heavy cav has a rough time, but can often prevail against forces that include heavy chariots. I don't have any campaign experience with all-cav against Elephants, but think that the elephants would prevail. Luckily, going up against elephants with all-cav is a rare occurance for the factions I've played. Also, some super-elite infantry units with very high stamina are harder to tire out; but it can usually be done. Sometimes one must settle for attacking these units when they are only "Tired" or "Very Tired," instead of when they are "Exhausted." Happily, encounters with these units are rare.

    ********************************************

    Tips and techniques for success with the all-cav force:

    You want a long, drawn out battle. Cavalry, even light cavalry, can use their superior stamina to get the better of Spearmen, Chosen Swordsmen, and any other infantry unit, including specials like Druids, Head Hurlers, Archers, Naked Fanatics, and Screeching Women. I have even used all-cav successfully against Roman Legionary and Urban Cohort, and against Greece to take out stacks made up mostly of upgraded Hoplites and Armored Hoplites (see example, below). Here is how:

    First, the short story. (Detailed story is below):

    1.) Get attacked in a good spot.
    2.) Run-rest, while the enemy runs.
    3.) Pick off archers, cav, and skirmishers as early as possible
    4.) Run the rest of the enemy for the entire battle.
    5.) After at least 20 minutes, pick off light infantry.
    6.) Pick off Heavy Infantry (H.I.).

    Details:

    1.) Pick good terrain. Although these techniques work well in open flat terrain, they work better on the hills. The ideal spot is very hilly, OPEN, with no forest or maybe a few small groves of trees in which to hide horses before the battle. Of course, the spot should ideally be picked so that is is a royal pain in the keester for the enemy to go around you on the campaign map.

    2.) Do NOT attack on the campaign map. Get attacked. This is important. Fortunately, it is also very easy, since your horses look like easy lunch meat for most half-stacks or larger. (Sometimes you can attack a superior force on the campaign map and still get the desired effect of the enemy chasing you on the battle map.)

    3.) Look at the mostly red force meter. Move your pointer over it to read the message, "Defeat is almost a certainty." Have a good laugh. Then run. Run, run, run. Run. Spend the first 20 minutes of a battle simply running away, with rest stops along the way. Make the enemy chase you. Run to remote locations and let your horses regain "Fresh" status while the enemy marches to get to you. Try to plan your route and rest spots to maximize the up-and-down hill climbing of the enemy units. I typically go around the map clockwise and rest in the corners until seconds before my force would become trapped or be archer's targets; then run off to the next corner.

    4.) Pick off any cav units in these first 20 minutes that break with the main body to come get you. Make sure that any such foolish units meet with AT LEAST 3 simultaneous cav attacks from widely different directions (this ensures at least 2 of the attacks will be flank attacks).

    5.) Pick off any archer/skirmisher units in these first 20 minutes, if you can do so safely. The ranged units will often stick tight to their protecting infantry, but you can usually get enough separation by splitting your force into two groups and running one group around the enemy's left flank and simultaneously running the other around their right. The enemy formation will always break into at least two groups and try to rearrange to meet you on both fronts. About 80% of the time the enemy's confusion combined with your cavalry's speed will give you an opening for one or 2 units to dart in and lay some heavy smack-down on the enemy's ranged units.

    6.) Once the army is stripped of all its ranged and cav support, this is a cake walk. Run long distances across the map, then rest. Go up and down the hills, while the enemy chases you non-stop. About 30 minutes into the fight, every single enemy unit should be "Exhausted," and "(unhappy due to exhaustion)." Your cavalry should all be "Fresh," after each rest stop.

    7.) As your "Exhausted" opponent climbs a hill to meet you, run two or three "Fresh" units around a flank enemy unit and position one unit to the enemy's side and another to the unit's backside. Have one or two more units ready uphill, in front of the enemy unit. Make sure all units have enough distance from the enemy to gather up enough steam to get the charge bonus. Using careful timing and the pause button (and this takes a only a little bit of practice) run the backside unit, the side unit and the front unit into the enemy unit. Timing is important, especially for spears. Time the attacks so that the side and rear arrive simultaneously, and the front attack arrives about 2 seconds later. The enemy unit should rout instantly, typically BEFORE the frontal assault arrives. Break off your rear assault just as the front one hits. If the frontal assault does not rout the unit, IMMEDIATELY disengage, re-setup, and try again.

    8.) If the enemy unit starts "Fighting to the death" immediately withdraw at least one unit, to allow the enemy unit to rout. Be careful to not let your horses chase routers into other enemy units or to otherwise come into contact with non-routed enemy units. Break off any assaults when your horses get winded and are near non-routed enemy. It takes less than a second for non-routed spears to rout your winded cavalry, especially light cavalry. Run away. Let the routers clear their comrades and then kill them. Then rest before attempting to rout another enemy unit. Excercise patience.

    9.) Use your general for the heavy lifting: If you have to take on an enemy general, use the simultaneous charge idea, but try to make sure it is your general that does the frontal assault; and have at least 3 of your light cav or 2 heavy cav units helping with attacks to the back and both flanks.

    10.) Variations to get even better results:

    A.) Hide all horses in a corner grove of trees until needed, and use your general to run the enemy ragged;

    B.) When your group of cavalry takes off for the next rest stop (remember, always RUN between rest stops); if it is safe to do so (no archers nearby), pick one unit and toggle the run/walk command for just this unit to "walk," while it is still very close to the enemy lines. Typically one brash enemy unit, typically light infantry, will give chase. Toggle run/walk to stay just ahead of the enemy unit and entice it to chase all the way to your waiting group of "Fresh" cavalry. If the enemy unit is "Exhausted," you should know what to do next.

    C.) If you have enough maneuvering room, run/walk one of your cav that has been targeted by an enemy, so that the enemy follows you downhill or across the hill. Run other cavalry downhill into the backs and sides of the enemy unit (as described before, make sure that there are multiple simultaneous charges into the same enemy unit).

    11.) I don't often run into Horse archers or Chariot archers (hereafter referred to collectively as "HA"). When I do, I assign at least three cav to attack. The middle one attacks straight on and the other two run a parallel course slightly ahead of the middle unit and wide out to the side, to turn back the inevitable HA attempt to escape to the side. Eventually the HA gets trapped against the battlefield boundary and then quickly routs with typically less than 1/3 of its force remaining. If I have lots of HA enemies and lots of cav, I just do a 6 to 8 unit wide screen, forcing every HA on the map into the same side or corner, and then butcher them all until they rout. Although dealing with them is straightforward and quick, HA cause more casualties than any other unit that I commonly deal with.

    12.) Retrain often, using the latest technology available (Blacksmith, Armorer, Foundry). Soon your cavalry's experience will be in silver chevron territory (your general may be in gold), and they will be more deadly and rout less easily.

    Following the steps above, on HARD battle setting, I typically can totally annihilate full stacks of conventional mix armies (8 H.I., 6 L.I., 1 archer, 2 skirmisher, 2 cav, and 1 general's cav) while suffering less than 15% casualties, even with inexperienced light cavalry.

    Move up to upgraded heavy cavalry as soon as you are able.

    ********************************************

    The detailed examples below, use heavy cavalry. I do not have a detailed and accurate account of a light cav battle on hand; but to give some confidence that the results shown for heavy cav can also be achieved, for the most part, by light cav: Here is one picture for your perusal. It is from my current campaign as Gauls on HARD/HARD dificulty settings. The force shown has won literally dozens of victories, mostly heroic, and mostly against Germania and Dacia forces that included lots of heavy infantry and/or spears. The battle shown, where we are only outnumbered by one or two hundred, will be far easier than the average difficulty of the encounters this force has faced.



    ********************************************

    Example battles: Gaul All-heavy-cav force against Greek cav-killers (various grades of Hoplites).










































    *******************************
    Fresh off of a Heroic victory, our merry band of Gaul Noble cav is immediately attacked by a second Greek force that is just as big as the one that was just annihilated....







    Below we see a texbook perfect set up for a simultaneous cav charge on a superior, yet isolated, unit. I wouldn't do this to an infantry unit, yet; because the unit is not exhausted. But it is near impossible to exhaust a general without also exhausting my cav; so might as well kill him while we are all fresh.



















    Last edited by NobleNick; July 31, 2006 at 04:09 PM.

  2. #2
    Severous's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of a Battle on HARD Setting

    I bet those two battles took a long time. Both full length, many pictures, much micro management.

    Good job Nick.

    - Do to select the weaker HI first...militia rather than armoured ? I think overall kill tally is a morale factor...as you kill more the enemy morale suffers.

    - Do you kill every last router? Might keeping one or two alive mean the enemy can see routers and so suffer morale penalties ?
    Regards
    Severous

    Did my part in a Franks BI Succession campaign:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=118689
    Played a Mod called "End of Days" Picture based AAR is here:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116509
    From last year. Final turn of vh/vh Egyptian campaign
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54262

  3. #3

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of a Battle on HARD Setting

    I'm sure those strategies work, but a) you're relying on stupid AI that will chase anything, b) your battles take a tremendous amount of time, and c)you can't attack. That makes them very unappealing to most players.
    Count no man happy until he is dead.


  4. #4
    NobleNick's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of a Battle on HARD Setting

    @ Severous --> Thanks. I try to pick off the easier units first; but if it is the end-game, and many units have been destroyed, I pick the nearest unit, to minimize the running my cav does.

    I kill as many routers as I can. By the time I get to the point where the enemy is exhausted, I think seeing their buddies die versus seeing them rout is a tertiary factor. I see your point, and think you are probably right; but I have absolutely no problem getting units to rout, except units that have both exceptional stamina AND exceptional morale (e.g. general's cav). Sometimes I do let the few last routers go; but if I do, it is to conserve on exertion of my troops.

    @ Professor420 --> You are absolutely right, on all three counts. And I agree with your overall conclusion: This is not for everyone.

    Well, one comment on your first point and one caveat on your third point:

    The A.I. attacks because we engineered it that way, by getting attacked on the campaign map. If the human player plays it right, the A.I. MUST chase the human player's forces in order to have any chance of winning.

    Often you can attack on the campaign map and get chased on the battle map; but it is a gamble. Still, if you are getting attacked by a pain in the neck faction that keeps pouring in stacks at you relentlessly, this is a cost effective (albeit time consuming) way to hold them at bay.
    Last edited by NobleNick; July 19, 2006 at 07:37 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Under RTR, I use groups of 4-6 cavalry to run around assassinating high ranking generals. 1-2 units of the best cavalry I can train, 2 light preferably horse archers, and 2 of any extra cav nearby I can hire or take from existing stacks, such as a unit with only 4 members. If I have the 2 extra units, I use them to either make enemy units close to the general chase them, or have the general chase them, whichever happens first. If I don't have the extra units, I use my light cav to do it. If you bring your cavalry near the general, the general's unit should turn to face you. Set up all remaining free cavalry so that they when they charge they will hit the general first. You can usually kill the general fairly quickly this way. If you're getting too many casualties, withdraw and try again later. Though make sure to click the "withdraw" when your men are sufficiently close to the borders. Otherwise they'll run into the enemy, or take the long way, etc. These battles generally take about 10 minutes for me, including loading time.

    A better way to deal with massive amounts of full stacks being launched against you is to take a poorly garrisoned city in the heart of their empire, and fill it up with as many mercs, archers and close-combat specialists you can get before their main forces get there (it will help to take the settlement immediately, as opposed to waiting for everyone to starve). Concentrate on close-combat guys like swordsmen, falxmen and stock up on at least six units of archers. It is crucial to have a family member in the castle, preferably a young one so he doesn’t' die of old age in the middle of a siege. As well, the family member is an excellent cav unit that regenerates, to charge at units' flanks should they make it in the city. Once you take the city, your main goal is to lure the stacks away from the front. This is why it's crucial to have the family member, as you can hire local mercenaries. This will help you in two ways: 1. you will have additional garrison 2. you remove a source of troops from the enemy. Any garrison, even peasants, is good garrison. Disband any units at your discretion if a good mercenary unit pops up, ie. swordsmen/archer.

    Another solution is to simply attack the faction at the other end of their empire. A good navy will help tremendously for both solutions. The first tactic is definitely is very expensive, but the second one is pretty cheap, all you need is a stack larger than their garrisons. In fact, NobleNick's cavalry solution can be modified somewhat, and instead of standing ground, get a stack with at least with one family member, and run around their empire, razing poorly defended cities and avoiding stacks as much as you can. Hire infantry mercs to build up siege machines in one turn, then garrison the city with your mercs once you capture, or raze it and disband the mercs.

    But NobleNick's cav unit is very flexible and fast. You can even use the stack offensively, taking out as many of their units in battle as possible before you start taking heavy losses, and withdraw, then your main stacks or garrisons will have an easier time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    hıımm great victory.


    to get up we are OTTOMAN EMPEROR..!!

  7. #7
    Civitate
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    I have to say very nice post, WHY HAVE YOU DISABLED REP? Anyway, this is helping me a lot with Alexander.
    Under the patronage of Rhah and brother of eventhorizen.

  8. #8
    NobleNick's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun
    I have to say very nice post, WHY HAVE YOU DISABLED REP? Anyway, this is helping me a lot with Alexander.
    Thanks. And glad you found this helpful.

    My rep was disabled because I was totally clueless. Based on your post I found the proper control and turned it on. Thanks!!

  9. #9

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Quote Originally Posted by NobleNick View Post
    Thanks. And glad you found this helpful.

    My rep was disabled because I was totally clueless. Based on your post I found the proper control and turned it on. Thanks!!
    I too love this post. Pardon my ignorance but what is "your REP"? And where do you see the indicator that says "Defeat is sure"?

    Thanks in advance.

  10. #10

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Great post Noble Nick.

    My favourite faction in RTW are the Parthians, and those are the same tactics I use. Parthian infantry is very weak, and I only recruit them to hold cities. My mobile armies are generally all cavalry. For a 20 unit stack I like 12 persian cavalry (worth the extra costs vs regular HA in my opinion), 5 cataphracts and a couple of elephants units, with a general in charge. The persian cavalry provide the firepower, the catphracts and elephants the shock. If necessary I will send in the elephants to cause havoc before the persian cavalry are finished with their arrows. They are tough enough to survive a while without micromanaging as it gets very hectic in a big battle. The cataphracts are tough but not that tough, so I don't like to commit them until after the persian cavalry are out of arrows. Until then the cataphracts provide protection for my persian cavalry; when the AI sends cavalry after my persain cavalry, the cataphracts and my general intercept them. I have not faced an AI army with more than 8 cavalry units so the 5 cataphracts and general can handle it. The toughest battles were against Egyptian armies with strong chariot archer and desert cavalry components.

    The limitations of an all cavalry force are:
    1) seige warfare if you need to take the settlement the same turn. But if you can wait, the AI will either try to sally out or send a relief force. Either way, if you defeat the AI army and don't let any of the city defenders escape, then you capture the settlement without having to conduct a true seige operation.
    2) fighting on a heavily forrested map. It can get hard to see what is happening everywhere on the map and that can allow the AI to close the gap and melee vs your cavalry to your disadvantage.

  11. #11
    Bonez's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Loved this guide and it gave me the idea to start spamming cav half stacks around the map , I did that because I find that microing cav is so fun to do but with infantry it is just a PITA, also if I attack with my cav stacks I break them into groups of two and then charge them in one group at a time in a semi blob to annilhate units and then quickly get out and choose a new target. To do this right you need to first go around the flank and take out the weak archer/ artillery in the back for the line units to start feeling the effects on their morale and then when you can't do that safely anymore you charge the flank closest to you right on the end, and just keep working your way up the flank. I used this against an almost full roman stack earlier and their line infantry routed like peasants after I charged them.

    Oh, also this

  12. #12

    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    This is interesting, i enjoyed the pictures very much, nice job.


    It's ironic that i appreciate how you fight battles, in that i do the exact opposite. I still use AI manipulation as the catalyst in all my battles, but rely more on army positioning to create strong and weak points in my ranks, giving me control over where and when the enemy will attack.


    Both methods have their strengths and weaknesses, as with Aggressive manipulation the fights don't take that long, but you need a higher amount of shock-troops to sustain moral damage. There seems to be a hidden threshold for the AI, governed by how they react to unit placement. Fine tuning of unit placement is the key to control that threshold, by constantly shifting forces to maintain your desired enemy disposition.


    Typically, a battle will play out with me either dividing or condensing different unit types in order to "pull" units away from the enemy army, these rogue detachments are easily dispatched when they meet the bulk of my army, usually inflicting no casualties on my side. Repeated use of this usually leads to 90% of the enemy army fleeing, at which point the battle becomes a Running-game. This is of course a blatant exploitation of the poor AI, but none-the-less it works flawlessly.


    The major drawback to playing this way is, you will soon bore of chasing the enemy across map after map, as i imagine the same can be said about running from them. After a while i became frustrated that no one would actually fight me. I guess it comes down to what kind of player you are, for me i hate loosing good men and will never throw my army into a slaughter. As silly as it sounds, i get mad when i loose even 5% of my army and feel disappointed in myself as a commander, that might explain why i play with such cunning.



    How about you ?
    Signature by Lucarius.

  13. #13
    TheFoolOnTheHill's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    i just put my people in a line
    Crème tangerine and Montelimar,A ginger sling with a pineapple heart,A coffee dessert, yes, you know it's good news,But you have to have them all pulled out,After the Savoy truffle,Cool cherry cream, nice apple tart,I feel your taste all the time we're apart,Coconut fudge really blows down those blues,But you'll have to have them all pulled out,After the Savoy truffle,You might not feel it now,When the pain cuts through,You're going to know and how,The sweat is going to fill your head,When it becomes too muchYou'll shout aloud,You'll have to have them all pulled out,After the Savoy truffle,You know that what you eat you are,But what is sweet now turns so sour,We all know Ob-la-di-bla-da,But can you show me where you are?Crème tangerine and Montelimar,A ginger sling with a pineapple heart,A coffee dessert, yes, you know it's good news,But you'll have to have them all pulled out,After the Savoy truffleYes, you'll have to have them all pulled out,After the Savoy truffle. Savoy Truffle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a9TMpAwwBw

  14. #14
    Bonez's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: In Defense of the ALL-Cav Force: a Pictorial Anatomy of Battles on HARD Setting

    Umm used this today, 433 men versus 67 cav, they were all romans, I won heroic with 35 casualties and 417 kills.

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