Dutch Elections. - The struggle with Europe.

[Diglytron]

In the shadow of the great power struggle in America between Romney and Obama there is an struggle in Europe aswell. The choice is between Europe and pro-European Eurosceptic parties. With the upcoming elections in one of the largest economies in Europe, the Netherlands there is a choice to be made between a greater and stronger Europe or a stronger own government.

It seems to go between the Socialist Party, SP and the Liberal party VVD. It will be a difficult election since none of the parties can get the direct minority and will need the support of other parties. Will Netherlands get beyond Belgium with the longest formation?

current exit polls;

Exit Poll

Interesting sources:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...?newsfeed=true

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-the-euro.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/19408907

Who you support, for who your going to vote if your Dutch, and ofcourse what do you, outsiders think of the anti-European sentiment in Holland, and much other countries.

[Treize]

Yea well we are screwed regardless.

SP is anti-euro and pro study financing but they want to raise taxes and abolish the army. They even want to abolish greenhouses for some reason.

The Kunduz Club (VVD, CDA, PvdA, GL, D66 and CU) cannot be trusted, they are a bunch of spineless eurofederalists and pseudo-liberals.

PVV has many good points but I am afraid their financial plan is rubbish and he is here to represent the interests of his foreign funders, not the people.

SGP has many good points but they are ofcourse a bunch of calvinist theocrats, however they will never be able to push those things through so I might vote for them for strategic purposes hoping for a third seat.

Also I might vote for one of the new parties but I am afraid they won't get a seat.

[Basil II the B.S]

Just go with the VVD as everyone else is ridiculously worse. Although part of me really wants to see everything crumble..

[Treize]

So how about this poll being hidden? That's just as silly as SP.

[Diglytron]

So how about this poll being hidden? That's just as silly as SP.

hahaha the polls open up at 12 september, election day! See it as a great exit poll from the wonderfull, always intelected people of TWC

We've had six elections in ten years time.

How about a blank vote? That's what I'm doing. Seriously, does anyone here have any faith that the next government will sit a full term? I'm so ing tired of political rhetoric every two years. So tired of the whole election parade every time. Also very damn tired of politicians forcing governments into collapse and then bragging about it and celebrating it.

And then you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm thinking of a blanco vote aswell. Tough, feeling ashamed when my childern ask later ''what did you vote on your first time'' And I have to say blanco, but whatever. This system is ed up, so many elections, no solutions, populism. Today its more important which tie a politician got than his views.

I hope the elections to bring hope and progress to both Dutch people and Europe

Goodluck hoping for you then. Won't going to happen.

I will never understand how people can listen to a person say that he'll take more of another man's money when he gets into power, and say to themselves: "yes, taking other people's money. That sounds like something we should do. You know what, I agree. I also think we should all gang up on that man and take more of what he has. Let's do it."

What authority does any mob have to take anything a man has worked for?

Agreed.

What you guys think of socialists in the seat of power? Something that fears you?

[Thorn777]

SP. They are the closest ones to making any sense. Though what can they do, as tiny Holland?

All sensible is destined to fail due to the "liberal" globalized dependencies we have build up. It needs "more Europe", but not more of this "Europe" in order to counter the neo-feudalism ahead. SP gets that though, despite their so called anti-EU stance. That + they want to get rid of the silly middle management cult parasiting on all public and semi public services.

Primarely though the ESM must be stopped.

[Basil II the B.S]

Sigh, the high taxation and public spending of social-democracy is leading Europe to bankruptcy... as the left-wing favourite tools are gone, they are panicking and pushing to eliminate the defense sector, instead of fixing a model that is clearly not sustainable. Just do it, and then what? In 10 years, or maybe less, you'll have to cut something else to feed the parasites, I wonder what that will be.

[Treize]

Sigh, the high taxation and public spending of social-democracy is leading Europe to bankruptcy... as the left-wing favourite tools are gone, they are panicking and pushing to eliminate the defense sector, instead of fixing a model that is clearly not sustainable. Just do it, and then what? In 10 years, or maybe less, you'll have to cut something else to feed the parasites, I wonder what that will be.

This correct, unfortunatly the VVD is more of the same, but instead or raising the top income tax rate they are seeking to abolish study financing to return to a day and age were only their electorate can afford to go to college and university.

@The Dude

Our political system is completely bankrupt. It has to be changed.
Unfortunatly this will only benefit the eurofederalists and their 'easy option'.

[Basil II the B.S]

This correct, unfortunatly the VVD is more of the same, but instead for rasing the top income tax rate they are seeking to abolish study financing to return to a day and age were only their electorate can afford to go to collega and university.

I hate that tbh. Education is by far my biggest issue with right wing parties.

[Thorn777]

Sigh, the high taxation and public spending of social-democracy is leading Europe to bankruptcy... as the left-wing favourite tools are gone, they are panicking and pushing to eliminate the defense sector, instead of fixing a model that is clearly not sustainable. Just do it, and then what? In 10 years, or maybe less, you'll have to cut something else to feed the parasites, I wonder what that will be.

You again shamelessly show to have no clue what you are talking about. Just repeating them neo-liberal mantras while their promises to society proved time and time again to do the opposite and are now in the process of complete collapse.

You are against international finance capitalism in many posts, but fail to understand that the commodification of all aspects of society ending up in them inflated markets is the real parasite quite litterally of peoples purses and debt creation. Not the invalide grandpa needing his subsidized wheelchair-scooter to get to the doctor instead of being placed in a tenfold as expensive senior home so the marketboys of middlemanagement can get their results and budgets.

And nvm the liberalized freedom of capital movements, where the invalide grandpa build up a huge surplus during his decades of wage earning, while it was allowed to move abroad, in imploding southern European bonds and real estate, instead of being invested here.

Now public money is used to save for the mistakes made by the privatized middlemanagement cult, and now that its starting to get used up, we try and sustain that cult while blaming grandpa the parasite.

But whatever. Pray to the high priest Milton if that makes you happy as an individual. Maybe then Treize can also stay happy watching some uniforms and boats with dutch flag stickers on them when reading military magazines.

[The Dude]

We've had six elections in ten years time.

How about a blank vote? That's what I'm doing. Seriously, does anyone here have any faith that the next government will sit a full term? I'm so ing tired of political rhetoric every two years. So tired of the whole election parade every time. Also very damn tired of politicians forcing governments into collapse and then bragging about it and celebrating it.

[Ascarona]

We've had six elections in ten years time.

How about a blank vote? That's what I'm doing. Seriously, does anyone here have any faith that the next government will sit a full term? I'm so ing tired of political rhetoric every two years. So tired of the whole election parade every time. Also very damn tired of politicians forcing governments into collapse and then bragging about it and celebrating it.

Agreed, we've had about 5 different parties the past decade. All of them were on a different side of the political spectrum, and all of them did a fan-ing-tastic job of ruining this country further than the previous one did. Democracy has failed.

I'm either going to vote PVV if they manage to kick Mr. Perm out so the ideas of the PVV can actually restore the country to glory, or I'll turn my first ever vote (turned 18 this summer) into a blank vote.

If that's the case, the problem would be make the rest of the population understand the point. Every time I proposed it here, I got an outraged reaction ''how dare you? Voting is a civic duty!!'', which is the slogan you get slammed in your head since primary school. Not even the most open minded people I know here have been able to get out this brainwashing. They want the political class to be delegitimized, but they will still vote, or vote blank. I lost hope. People deserve what's coming to them.

How so? You have a right to vote, I'd say that means you also have a right not to vote as well?

What you guys think of socialists in the seat of power? Something that fears you?

In the unlikely event that they make it through 5 years, you can bet your ass that an unrecoverable damage will be made to the Netherlands. If they win, and they last long enough, your country is doomed.

Extremely unlikely that they will make it through the 4 years, with such a divided political landscape I bet a left oriented cabinet won't even last a year.

[NotYetRegistered]

I'm either going to vote PVV if they manage to kick Mr. Perm out so the ideas of the PVV can actually restore the country to glory, or I'll turn my first ever vote (turned 18 this summer) into a blank vote.

Really? The PVV? The PVV will restore us to glory?

What brought you to that conclusion?

[Ascarona]

Really? The PVV? The PVV will restore us to glory?

What brought you to that conclusion?

This mostly. Also this, short term is all I need anyway before I finish my studies and emigrate.

I'll admit, I should have used a different word. Glory is too strong, but I couldn't find the right alternative at the time.

^SP never ruled...

Technically neither did de PVV (the previous cabinet was a minority with gedoogsteun after all).

[NotYetRegistered]

This mostly. Also this, short term is all I need anyway before I finish my studies and emigrate.

I've only watched four minutes of the second link, but it just seems to me he's shifted his focus from ''evil muslims'' to ''evil Europe''. We're a trading nation, and while most of our trading is done with Germany, it hasn't hurt to have unrestricted trading with the rest of Europe. It's not like the EU suddenly decides all our decisions either.

There will be more economic growth with the PVV's plan, yeah, but that's mostly because they will just ignore most austerity measures and start spending a lot, I think. I'm not sure wether that would be received well in the current economic climate. I don't know wether the CPB has featured that in their calculations, though, so that's just speculation.

Oh well. Agree to disagree?

Its not for nothing that a party like the VVD is the larges

The last time the VVD was in this position was in 1918 or so.

[The Dude]

That's my gripe aswell. Right gives us unaffordable education, left wing gives us legislated robbery. I want nothing to do with either. Worst part is that all people ever talk about are numbers anymore. An extra euro here, a percent less there, as if that matters. Where's the vision, the ideology? Lately I'm beginning to feel as if Samsom's the only one talking any sense and considering how much I ing hate Labour that's the last thing you'd expect me to admit to.

[Thorn777]

^"Other peoples moneys" is just an abstract result out of markets. However unfree, rigged, and inefficient they are. I dont get why "others peoples moneys" is the end all be all to so many peoples.

That's my gripe aswell. Right gives us unaffordable education, left wing gives us legislated robbery. I want nothing to do with either. Worst part is that all people ever talk about are numbers anymore. An extra euro here, a percent less there, as if that matters. Where's the vision, the ideology? Lately I'm beginning to feel as if Samsom's the only one talking any sense and considering how much I ing hate Labour that's the last thing you'd expect me to admit to.

Maybe its because you dont hear what you like to hear. Well, often the facts are uncomfortable and rather stigmatized or ignored, rather than understood for the sake of understanding. Specially to such an indoctrinated neo-liberal society like Holland I suppose.

[Admiral Piett]

Maybe its because you dont hear what you like to hear. Well, often the facts are uncomfortable and rather stigmatized or ignored, rather than understood for the sake of understanding. Specially to such an indoctrinated neo-liberal society like Holland I suppose.

Holland is neoliberal. That's a first.

You're sounding less and less of a Third Way proponent and more and more like a socialist.

[Muizer]

Holland is neoliberal. That's a first.

It may not yet be neoliberal, but Holland most certainly has been moving in that direction the past 20 years with extensive privatisation and introduction of free market mechanisms in areas previously belonging to the public sector. Also, politically, the liberal VVD has replaced the Christian Democrates as a permanent fixture in government. The only thing I would argue with is the "neo" bit. Rutte especially has a naieve 19th century view of liberalism.

[Admiral Piett]

It may not yet be neoliberal, but Holland most certainly has been moving in that direction the past 20 years with extensive privatisation and introduction of free market mechanisms in areas previously belonging to the public sector. Also, politically, the liberal VVD has replaced the Christian Democrates as a permanent fixture in government. The only thing I would argue with is the "neo" bit. Rutte especially has a naieve 19th century view of liberalism.

So he's still wrong.