How noob am I?

[hokomoko]

As I was reading more about battle tactics, I found out that most people consider infantry as the main army, and cavalry to harass the enemy, for they will lose to heavy infantry.
It's true I didn't play much in multiplayer, but when I played against AI, my main attack force was cavalry, which was split to three heads.
Two heads sent to the sides of the enemy, and the main one sent forward to engage the enemy.
If the enemy sent his army to face my main head I closed my trap and smashed him from all sides.
If the AI sent some fighters to intercept the other heads, I sent some of the main head to charge them from the rear.
It appears not many use this tactic, and I wonder why, for it always worked even against much bigger armies. (of course not against elephants)
So I ask here how noob am I?

[removeduser_426582376423734]

The AI is stupid. Real people will split their army into three.

[hokomoko]

The AI is stupid. Real people will split their army into three.

The AI does it too sometimes, but the cavalry is just too fast for them

[Professor420]

Why? Because:
a)cavalry is MUCH more expensive than infantry. The units are smaller, the prices are higher, the upkeep is higher. Keeping an army of mostly cavalry, unless you're playing as a cavalry faction like Parthia or Scythia, is going to bankrupt you.
b)you are using your middle cavalry force essentially as infantry that holds the enemy in place. RTW cavalry is mostly effective as shock troops, in melee they aren't good at all. Without infantry, you are forcing your cavalry to become melee troops, which makes them ineffective.
c)A great time to shock enemy troops is when they are Winded or Tired... they will rarely get to this stage as they are murdering your cavalry in melee. More likely, your own cavalry will become tired faster in melee, and rout.
d)Cavalry is bad in melee, as stated. Combine to this that there are less of them per unit than infantry, and one on one, equally priced infantry almost always beats equally priced cavalry. Your spearhead of 5 cavalry units is going to be quickly surrounded and overwhelmed by 4 units of mediocre enemy infantry.
e)Good luck with the retraining costs, after all the losses and unit routings you're going to suffer, compared to infantry.

I'm not saying cavalry armies aren't good. I'm saying, in a tactical or strategic situation, especially in the long haul, they are not feasible. I use mostly cavalry armies usually when I'm suffering from 'campaign fatigue.' That is, when I have conquered those 20 or 30 provinces, and the game is all but won already, and I don't have money problems and no one can challenge my military. In the first half of the game, though, forget about it. I even tend to be a cavalry-heavy player, especially in campaign, but using them as my centerpiece would be a big folly.
I find it hard to believe that you have this outlook, and you're playing SP on equally-matched VH custom battles... if you really want to test, though, you can always play online.

[Severous]

Cavalry armies:

- Campaign map. They move further. Faster conquest of the world. They reach the enemy city earlier and can start the seige. Infantry moving up behind them next turn conduct the assault with weapons the cavalry army built. (4 full units build a ram)

- Battle map they provide mobility advantage. You control the battlefield and dictate the minor tactical encounters. Engineer local fights where you have numerical and/or tactical advantages. This advantage can be exploited most when playing against the AI.

Many mods have reduced the advantage of cavalry. Making them smaller and/or more expensive. Surely an acknowledgement that they are overpowered in the unmoddified game.

[hokomoko]

a)cavalry is MUCH more expensive than infantry. The units are smaller, the prices are higher, the upkeep is higher. Keeping an army of mostly cavalry, unless you're playing as a cavalry faction like Parthia or Scythia, is going to bankrupt you.

That was pretty funny to hear, because I usually get (even on VH) my treasure to be above million, which is pretty far from being bankrupted. (I don't know how I do it, Money just seems to be drawn to my hand, there were cities I captured with a diplomat by building town watch every turn, being thrown from the city because they don't like me, and bribing them again, it takes 4-5 turns and some 400000 in cash)

[glorfindel87]

That was pretty funny to hear, because I usually get (even on VH) my treasure to be above million, which is pretty far from being bankrupted. (I don't know how I do it, Money just seems to be drawn to my hand, there were cities I captured with a diplomat by building town watch every turn, being thrown from the city because they don't like me, and bribing them again, it takes 4-5 turns and some 400000 in cash)

Play a n00b faction like Gaul or Numidia, and on hard or above, and come back and tell me you have plenty of money.

[KingKoKaine]

another one who thinks we're all stupid...1million denarii saved up on VH? Who do you think is going to buy that? lol

[NobleNick]

hokomoko,

See this thread --> All Cavalry tactics

Cavalry, though more expensive on a per man basis, is relatively very cheap if you only need 6 to 9 units to repetitively defeat full stacks of conventional mix armies.

If you are going to use your center unit to actually engage the enemy, then I would advise using infantry for that. If you are just skirmishing away, tiring out the enemy, and only hitting when their backs are turned; then all-cav is a wonderful thing.

[hokomoko]

hokomoko,

See this thread --> All Cavalry tactics

Cavalry, though more expensive on a per unit basis, is relatively very cheap if you only need 6 to 9 units to repetitively defeat full stacks of conventional mix armies.

If you are going to use your center unit to actually engage the enemy, then I would advise using infantry for that. If you are just skirmishing away, tiring out the enemy, and only hitting when their backs are turned; then all-cav is a wonderful thing.

thanks, I'll try that!

[nicotine]

Am I the only one that sees the basic problem with an All-Calv force? How are you supposed to take towns over if you use nothing but calvalry? Unless you're just bribing every town away, which doesn't make your over a million treasury feasible.

[NobleNick]

Am I the only one that sees the basic problem with an All-Calv force? How are you supposed to take towns over if you use nothing but calvalry?

You are assuredly not the only one; but I hope after reading the following that the crowd that sees a problem with it will no longer include you:

1.) Bribe. I have never done this. Others have said it works for them.

2.) Some towns have no defensive walls at all. This has happened to me once (Kydonia).

3.) Bring War Elephants (can knock down the gates of wooden walled towns, which includes EVERY Barbarian-built town: that is most of the towns in the game). I have done this when playing as Carthage, or when playing as Romans and have been given elephants as an "exotic" unit reward from the Senate.

4.) Some towns have unrepaired wall and/or gate damage from a previous take-over that will let your troops in for free. This happens WA-A-A-AYY more often than it should: rat-brained A.I.

5.) Starve the town into a surrender or field battle (which your cav will win). I sometimes do this: If I am just standing around anyway, trying to get attacked; why not starve a town while waiting? This is often very advantageous: If an enemy relief unit attacks you while you are waiting (which is what you want), then the city garrison will come out onto the field to aid them. Units that are a real threat on city walls (e.g., archers) can be very easy pickings in a field battle.

6.) Infiltrate the town with spies, who will open the gates for you. I don't generally rely on this; but have done it a few times; and have learned from other players, who use it as a mainstay, that it works quite consistently.

7.) Bribe a nearby general and have them man the rams. This is another technique I've never used; but others have had limited success with it.

8.) Start the siege with cav and then follow up with your own short stack that includes infantry. All that is needed for most sieges is one unit to man a ram. Wooden walled cities defended by archers and Stone walled cities will typically need more. But, though your cav cannot use siege towers, they CAN build them; so that your infantry can attack as soon as they arrive. Thus, leading with the cav force saves you 2 or 3 turns.

9.) Hire a mercenary infantry unit just before the siege starts or while it is in progress. I usually have a general in my all-cav forces; so this is my mainstay. I typically wait until the exact turn of the attack to hire the merc unit. (This way, any enemy sally finds only all-cav.) After the battle, the merc unit serves as part of the new garrison, freeing your cav to continue onward.

Have I missed anything? Hmmm... Probably. But nine techniques seems like enough for a starter list.

[hokomoko]

I usually took two heavy onagers to support the cavalry in a siege, or in early game, I took 2-4 infantry.

[Steuner]

b)you are using your middle cavalry force essentially as infantry that holds the enemy in place. RTW cavalry is mostly effective as shock troops, in melee they aren't good at all. Without infantry, you are forcing your cavalry to become melee troops, which makes them ineffective.

Well if you have 1700 Cavalry running up 1 army of 2000 infantry + Cavalry + skirmishers / archers, their first lines breaks without ANY problems at all (talking bout AI enemy :/) so they don't often melee do they?

[Darth Wong]

Well if you have 1700 Cavalry running up 1 army of 2000 infantry + Cavalry + skirmishers / archers, their first lines breaks without ANY problems at all (talking bout AI enemy :/) so they don't often melee do they?

That army of 1700 cavalry will also cost a lot more in both recruiting and upkeep cost than the army of 2000 infantry. You should compare dollar for dollar.

Having said that, you can win some stunning victories with the right heavy cavalry (an all-general army is very tough). But a lot of the tactics for using heavy cavalry rely on a level of extended battle micromanagement that I'm not interested in, and which bears no resemblance to the kind of battle that would have actually taken place in reality. RTW has enough realism problems without people finding ways to win battles with Roman armies composed entirely of Equites.

[Professor420]

If you have an all-cavalry full-stack army, that puts 85 cavalry in a unit. The Huge size cavalry unit is 108 men. The Huge size infantry unit is 160 and 240. How is it that an all-cavalry force can only be outnumbered by 300 units against a foot-based army? Its more likely at best outnumbered 2-1. And outnumbered 2-1, you're NEVER going to win in a frontal assault, except maybe on Very Easy. And if you're playing on Very Easy, you shouldn't be giving advice in this forum.

[hokomoko]

well, actually in roman times almost no one charged with horses, and there were even units composed by both infantry and cavalry, for if you don't charge with the horses, infantry can match their speed.

[joorik]

NO full cavalary army has even beaten a well composed army of infantry, cavalary, archers and artillery. What might at best stand a chance is full general or full elephant army. Generals are usually hard to find (even if you can train them they take like 3 turns to build and are probably more useful managing towns) and elephants probably cost a ton to train and upkeep and are very hard to retrain on enemy lands.

Anyway I played with alemanni on RTW:BI once and after some time I had an army that was half-cavalary. They had so much experience that they could rout enemy armies usually on impact making the infantry part of the army quite useless, but that was on medium battle difficulty. On vh they would have either suffered heavy losses and routed themself.

All in all I highly recommend an army with all types of units in it, maybe leaving out onagers in defending armies for higher mobility to intercept enemy armies. With well composed army as romans I have beaten 3 enemy armies in one battle on hard battle difficulty with about 33% losses on my side while i doubt your cavalaries ability to achieve that. Also what would you do with your all cavalary army if the enemy has brought units with phalanx/shield wall and knows how to use them? Or maybe even cavalary archers that your heavy cavalary cant catch on field.

[NobleNick]

NO full cavalary army has even beaten a well composed army of infantry, cavalary, archers and artillery.

Are you talking real life or RTW? If the latter, then I beg to differ. I've won literally hundreds of battles with highly outnumbered all-cav forces; exterminating the enemy entirely while taking minimal losses on Hard setting. Dozens of those encounters were against "well composed" full stacks or multiple stacks. How? The answer can be found in this thread.

All in all I highly recommend an army with all types of units in it, maybe leaving out onagers in defending armies for higher mobility to intercept enemy armies. With well composed army as romans I have beaten 3 enemy armies in one battle on hard battle difficulty with about 33% losses on my side while i doubt your cavalaries ability to achieve that.

Well mixed armies have their place, and I use them. However, I don't doubt an all-cav force's ability to outperform a standard mix army against a "well composed" enemy force. Again, I refer you to the above thread. I typically experience 10% to 15% per battle, for exceptionally tough battles or when I am being greedy or sloppy. I have many runs of multiple successive victories against 3 or more well composed armies with less than 33% total friendly casualties. It takes patience and micromangement with which many do not wish to bother. But it yields awesome results.

Also what would you do with your all cavalary army if the enemy has brought units with phalanx/shield wall and knows how to use them? Or maybe even cavalary archers that your heavy cavalary cant catch on field.

The phrase, "and knows how to use them," implies a multiplayer experience. I am talking single player. In single player, I exterminate the HA immediately. Yes, your cav CAN catch AI-driven HA easily. For a more detailed response, that shows exactly how to do this, in the context of your exact proposed scenario of HA combined with tough Phalanx, again, I refer you to the above referenced thread.

[hokomoko]

A problem I've found with all cavalry is the dogs, an all cavalry army can loose if the enemy has 2-3 war dogs.