Skirmishing and javelin units

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

I did some reading and searching around the forum and found that the javelin units have always been practically useless - they are only good for 1 or 2 volleys before they have to retreat behind the main infantry line not to get slaughtered, or if they already are there they must stop firing or otherwise they will do friendly fire damage to your own units. Also im not talking about javelin armed cav in this thread.

The only situations where the javelin units are useful are:

1. sieges where they can both stand ground on the walls and effectively kill the units pushing the siege equipment.

2. Flanking and then firing in the backs of the enemy, while this is probably effective its not the way javelinmen should be used, they should be used for skirmishing which, to be honest i doubt is a tactic anyone uses, if there is any skirmishing in a TW game its with HA.

The javelin has always been a hard hitting, armor piercing missile with short range, but the 1 or 2 volleys on open field just arent enough to do any kind of real damage, so how would you want to see the javelin be represented in Rome 2? I personally have no ideas myself, but i wanted to bring this up because the javelin units always get sort of looked by in all TW games it has been in so far.

[Godless Pickle]

I always recruited 2 to 3 skirmishing units to pepper the enemy before a charge which was very useful. The only situation they were incredibly useless was in Roma Surrectum.

[Shocked]

I always recruited 2 to 3 skirmishing units to pepper the enemy before a charge which was very useful. The only situation they were incredibly useless was in Roma Surrectum.

In Roma Surrectum 2 I still find them useful... I just keep them behind my lines and they hit the charging enemy, after that they hit the enemy while locked into battle

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

because the javelin units always get sort of looked by in all TW games it has been in so far.

Not in the original MTW, but you are probably too young to have played it. In that game javeliners: Irish Kerns, Mutabin Infantry and Almughavars were the killers

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Havent played MTW, i have only played RTW and M2TW, and in both of these games the javelins have been sort of meh units with limited abilities, dont know anything about more recent games(if any game at all is featuring javelins, i doubt anyone used to fling javelins around during napoleonic wars )

[The Great Montrose]

Yea I dont really think the javelin units are ever that good, they need to be better considering they can only unleash a few volleys

[Lockcaps]

What they need is more speed, or rather "quickness" in how fast they respond to orders. Also skirmish mode needs to be fixed. And they should have longer range.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

What they need is more speed, or rather "quickness" in how fast they respond to orders. Also skirmish mode needs to be fixed. And they should have longer range.

Skirmish mode im guessing has stayed as unreliable in recent TW games as it has been in the past, it just is not fast enough to respond. If so that would be a simple fix im guessing. One thing they defineatly dont need is speed - if they are given more speed it would make them flanking units, which again destroys their purpose - to skirmish. A quicker reaction to orders would be a good thing trough, it would also make them faster if you can micro manage well.

[KittySN]

These were particularly strong in several RTW mods due to adding the armor piercing ability. Vanilla? Not so much. I think quality/elite skirmishers should have armor piercing similar to pila. If you hurl a metal-tipped, sharpened javelin at someone, it's going to penetrate all but the thickest armor. As it is in MP, players only seem to bring skirmishers as a handicap or for amusement. And on that note, quality/elite slingers should be armor piercing, as with some of the eastern faction's archers (composite bow).

[MrManFreak]

Agreed in all,although velites in RTW look really cool,they are only useful in specific conditions

maybe increasing their speed at reloading and firing and improving their range would work?

i also hope they iimprove the auxilia/light auxilia,they're some of the useful/coolest looking units on most mods but on vanilla they're completely useless

[♔The Black Knight♔]

Playing vanilla rome and med 2, they were really pathetic and most of the time if you threw the spears, they harly do damage.

Hopfuly, well see the javalins and spears do some damage as well as hurt the morale. They would not be as good in melee however, but id like to see them take down elephants and cav with ease.

[Wowwars]

Arcade mode: On - Game Over for your enemies. all you need are skirmishers.

[ray243]

Things like javelins should impact the unit's shield. Anyone who uses a shield to defend himself from a skirmishing attack would gradually find his shields being more cumbersome. This would often prompt soldiers to abandon their shields and carry on fighting.

This can be simulated in the next total war game.

[88HaZZarD88]

Things like javelins should impact the unit's shield. Anyone who uses a shield to defend himself from a skirmishing attack would gradually find his shields being more cumbersome. This would often prompt soldiers to abandon their shields and carry on fighting.

This can be simulated in the next total war game.

yeah

[DarthShizNit]

I for one always used a pretty heafty amount of peltast units when playing as the greeks, and actually skirmished with them if the enemy refused to attack me. They are particularly effective against other phalanxes, and a great way to wittle down their numbers before they hit your own phalanxe, and as we all know in phalnxe warfare, who ever had the most guys won. Another good tactic was to simply put all of your peltasts and what not to attack a single phalanxe unit, basically wiping it out in a few volleys, thus leaving a hole or an opertunity to flank. And if all else fails, they do great if you just put them behind the lines and they pepper the enemy as they close in.

As the Selucides I for one simply spammed militia cav the first few turns to help counter all those lightly armoured but numerous nubian spearmen the damn eygptians kept throwing at me. (Only ever played vanilla btw).

But of course I wouldn't mind some new stuff to make them more effective, especailly in the west, as I only ever really used them as the greeks to beat other greeks.

[JaM]

yes, javelins are too weak in all RTW games, especially if you compare them to arrows.. thing is it should be other way around. As i mentioned in other posts, javelin was heavy hitter that could kill if it hit. Yes, shield would prevent javelin from piercing the body, but javelin would damage the shield significantly or even make it useless, so soldier would have to throw it away to be able to continue.

There aren't many mods that have javelins right, one of few is Real Combat by Point Blank, which uses kinetic energy as a base for damage values - in his mod, longbow has DMG 4-5, while Javelins have 11-12!

ofcourse, not all javelins should be armor piercing. there were two types of skirmishers - light, that preferred mobility therefore carried more light javelins, and heavy, which were heavier armed, but carried small number of heavy javelins. anyway, even the light javelin had more hitting power than the strongest bow in ancient era! From armor perspective, probably only plate armor (Lorica Segmentata), and some heavier scale armor could withstand direct hit from light javelin and protect you. Chain mail would definitly not protect you against those... therefore if you check what armor value early legionary have (let say Principes, as they wore lorica hamata), light javelin should have DMG value slightly above it ,let say 20-25% higher, so if armor value for LH is 8, light javelin should have DMG 9-10. So direct hit to shielded side would prevent taking damage, but any hits to unshielded side or rear should be lethal...

with this in place, you can see that fast moving light skirmishers that could outrun heavy infantry could easily flank them (while they fight your heavies), and unleash the carnage throwing javelins into their unprotected side... so javelin skirmishers were ideal for killing heavy infantry from flanks, archers and slingers were more suited for killing those skirmishers at range instead of performing the same job...

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Great post Jam, lets hope someone from CA read this and something is done to bring more justice to the javelins, the idea is great, but i dont know if they will implement something like soldiers throwing their shield down when they have been peppered with javelins in order to move faster again, that seems to me like a lot of work for this one feature.

[JaM]

its the first thing i do when i decide to play some Rome mod (EB, RSII, RTR) - i increase damage of all javelins, reduce damage for bows, and give all ranged weapons area effect so indirect kills are possible (enemy or friendly - makes you stop using those weapons if you are in contact with enemy to avoid own loses, or at least use them more carefully..)

[Lord-Fisher]

Depending on the javelin type, it would be cool if some of the units hit would have to drop their shield, because they couldn't pull the javelin out...not sure if this is javelin or Pila. This could lower the defense of the individual warriors.

[torongill]

Depending on the javelin type, it would be cool if some of the units hit would have to drop their shield, because they couldn't pull the javelin out...not sure if this is javelin or Pila. This could lower the defense of the individual warriors.

That was the pilum, but the Spanish soliferum also would be of that kind. The thing is, even normal javelins would weigh down your shield, but they can be more easily pulled out, since most of them were spears writ small and had leafshaped spearheads.