Does Taiwan have a legitimate claim to Mainland China

[50 Pence]

Would you support Taiwan gaining back Mainland China from the PRC. If so why, if not why.
As for me I think i would as long as it remains a Representative democracy, with freedom of speech and all that jazz because for me freedom trumps party loyalty and nationalism any day.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Define legitimate.

Because if we define Legitimacy as a sum of values that interpelate populations in support of certain Structure or Actor, like an Institution, a State a Government or a Law then no... mainlanders do not want to be effetively ruled by Taiwan.

[50 Pence]

Define legitimate.

Because if we define Legitimacy as a sum of values that interpelate populations in support of certain Structure or Actor, like an Institution, a State a Government or a Law then no... mainlanders do not want to be effetively ruled by Taiwan.

I interpret legitimacy generally as which would be a more efficient and less brutal, while also keeping or increasing a standard of living. For example i would say that The provisional government of Russia during WW1 was legitimate to both the Tsars regime, and the USSR, but the Tsars regime was legitimate to the USSR (I know not the best examples but its what i had on hand at the moment)

[yupper]

Define legitimate.

Because if we define Legitimacy as a sum of values that interpelate populations in support of certain Structure or Actor, like an Institution, a State a Government or a Law then no... mainlanders do not want to be effetively ruled by Taiwan.

There's no need to get all Althusser on him just because his question was nebulous...

I guess my question in response to the OP's question is: Taiwan and whose army?

[50 Pence]

There's no need to get all Althusser on him just because his question was nebulous...

I guess my question in response to the OP's question is: Taiwan and whose army?

Ya i have some problems with the use of the world legitimacy maybe i better word would be would it be a better government.

As for whose army ideally an army of put up citizens that overthrow the PRC establish a democracy and invite Taiwan back.

Any other scenario would require the invention of anti-nuke defenses,(Which IMO within 20 years will make war between great powers possible again.) and huge political will on the part of the nation or nations that undertake it. That one is iffy if i would support it just depends on how much life would be lost just to put Taiwan on the throne so to speak, but i would show support if it was an invasion in support of a rebellion.

[hellheaven1987]

Because if we define Legitimacy as a sum of values that interpelate populations in support of certain Structure or Actor, like an Institution, a State a Government or a Law then no...

In that case I claim Union government has no legitimacy on Confederation - did not stop Lincoln to burn South down anyway.

Ultimately, legitimacy is maintained by force, not the will of people - dead men simply do not speak.

[OCWife]

The Republic of China does not need to claim the mainland, because it already owns the mainland. The ROC just lets the mainland operate its own government for the time being for stability reasons, kind of like how Hong Kong has its own government too but it belongs to the nation of China, which is shorthand designation for the Republic of China. Taiwan is not a country, it is a geographical identifier for an island. The name of the country is Republic of China.

[SLN445]

At this current point in time, nope.

[SLN445]

Not exactly the Definition i would use

[Facupay]

On paper, pretty small.

In reality, zero.

[CELTICEMPIRE]

The worst president of the twentieth century, Nixon, officially recognized the People's Republic of China as a legitimate government in 1972, Taiwan abandoned it's claim to the mainland in 1999. However, morally, the Taiwanese government has legitimacy over the mainland government, just like South Korea has moral legitimacy over the DPRK.

[Chukada1]

No.

Taiwan has no claim over the Mainland.

[Claudius Gothicus]

There's no need to get all Althusser on him just because his question was nebulous...

I guess my question in response to the OP's question is: Taiwan and whose army?

Weber, not Althusser thank you very much.

In that case I claim Union government has no legitimacy on Confederation - did not stop Lincoln to burn South down anyway.

Ultimately, legitimacy is maintained by force, not the will of people - dead men simply do not speak.

Nope, you are confusing Power with legitimacy. Power is the possibility of a certain body of government, institution or State to instill obedience on subjects. Power can be maintained and achieved through violent deterrance or Legitimacy: most Gubernamental Action is obeyed because of Legitimacy and only a certain specific few are followed due to direct threat of Violence.

Most people accept, tacitly, their democratically elected leaders due to what they perceive as a more or less ''fair system'', and even if they might sometimes get angry at it they still believe in ''democracy''. Same with the Chinese Government, most action is obeyed due to the PRC ability to maintain his regime withint the limits of subject tolerance.

In relationship to System Stability it's always ''cheaper'' on political and economic resources to have a more ''legitimate government'' and less of a ''Violence Based one''. But different Political Systems have different ways of instilling Legitimacy in their subjects, and it's in arrangement to those subjects values that the System has to adapt itself.

Democracy could very well be an stable system for Taiwan but we are certainly not sure about the same situation for the Mainland, in any case the PRC has the International Recognition on their side, the majority of the population under control(through a certain mix of violence and socioeconomic improvement I believe) and Taiwan's political parties lack representation in their country.

This are basic terms of Sociology and Political Science people, we are not going to change their scientific and explicative value in an internet debate: in any case OP's question is not about Legitimacy, it's about a preferred Political System of his(Taiwan's ''Democracy'') in comparison to the PRC's one(Authoritarian Technocracy) and not about what the Chinese People, in their political landscape, prefer.

[OCWife]

This are basic terms of Sociology and Political Science people, we are not going to change their scientific and explicative value in an internet debate: in any case OP's question is not about Legitimacy, it's about a preferred Political System of his(Taiwan's ''Democracy'') in comparison to the PRC's one(Authoritarian Technocracy) and not about what the Chinese People, in their political landscape, prefer.

The Chinese prefer democracy, but the rebels already killed off most of those in the mainland, leaving alive those preferring oppressive dictatorship.

You say your definition of legitimacy is based on the preference of the people, not on force. However, that is logically flawed because the preference of the people can be changed by force. Such has happened in the mainland, where the rebels have killed off most of those that oppose them. Of course the people approve, because those that disapprove are already dead.

[Claudius Gothicus]

The Chinese prefer democracy, but the rebels already killed off most of those in the mainland, leaving alive those preferring oppressive dictatorship.

A Billion chinese are momentarily content with the PRC. End of the debate on that area

You say your definition of legitimacy is based on the preference of the people, not on force. However, that is logically flawed because the preference of the people can be changed by force. Such has happened in the mainland, where the rebels have killed off most of those that oppose them. Of course the people approve, because those that disapprove are already dead.

[OCWife]

A Billion chinese are momentarily content with the PRC. End of the debate on that area

Of course they are, because they don't want to rot to death in a rebel gulag. Why are Westerners so susceptible to rebel propaganda? I have seen the situation first hand. I have lived it. And when I came to the West, I was initially surprised how skewed from reality the Western perception of the situation is, but now I've come to expect it given how effective the rebels are at forcing people to think a certain way. They are so effective that they even affect those living on the other side of the globe.

The rebels may not have physically conquered the West yet, but they have already softened up West for the coming invasion by indoctrinating their minds. The Chinese are masterful strategists indeed.

[yupper]

Weber, not Althusser thank you very much.

You did throw out the concept of 'interpellation' in the context of political 'legitimacy', yes? But true, Weber covers that terrain as well if not through that terminology.

Your personal account is not evidence and does not form a sound theoretical framework that explains the reality of why and how is the PRC governing the Mainland and has been so for more than 60 years.

I think we saw this coming....that it would turn into an 'anti-PRC' thread by people whose knowledge of the PRC is basically gleamed from CNN and FoxNews headlines or some superficial 'guided tour' experience in China. As Yoda would say, read scholarly studies of the PRC, they have not.

@OP
I don't know if you've paid attention to Taiwanese politics at all, but Taiwanese politics make US politics look civilized. Do you really think any of the political parties in Taiwan are capable of governing China, even if they could somehow miraculously propel themselves into power in spite of the fact they have zero support from mainlanders?

[King Gambrinus]

It used to.

[Caelifer_1991]

The PRC seems to be doing a decent job atm, so it's fine by me if they continue.

[Col. Tartleton]

Zhōnghuá Mínguó is legitimate.

Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó is not legitimate.

As far as I'm concerned Taiwan looks like this:



Obviously the Communist Government is de facto the government of China, but de jure their is no question that the legitimate state is Taiwan.