Town Watch/Garrison options

[IrishHitman]

Instead of having to garrison field armies to improve public order, why not have a system whereby you can add to and upgrade garrison units?

Meaning that you can spend cash to add to the town watch, spend cash to upgrade their military capabilities in case of sieges, and of course the public order buildings giving them certain bonuses? Militarily, they'd function just as the citizens do in Empire, they fill the empty army slots in a roster during sieges, but can't be deployed outside the town in any way.

In terms of the Romans, you could have everything from lower magistrates to urban cohorts as options.

What do you guys think?

[Ender Wiggin]

NO URBANS.

[IrishHitman]

NO URBANS.

If they can't be deployed outside siege battles, and can only be upgraded after an Emperor event, why the hell not?

EDIT: Not to mention they'd be nearly as expensive to recruit and upkeep as Praetorian Guards...

[RexImperator]

NO URBANS.

The Urban Cohort was a completely historical formation taken to an extreme. the Urbans were deployed inside Italy alongside Praetorians or Marines to put down revolts and detachment of them was stationed in Lugdunum where the Imperial mint was and in Imperial Carthage because its strategic position. They were often sent to reinforce legions during the Year of Four Emperors by Galba and Vitellius when they had no reinforcement legions to draw upon.

Should they be the uber end all be all "beyond elite" legionary unit of the game, no. Should they be included in some capacity, yes.

[Lockcaps]

The Urban Cohort was a completely historical formation taken to an extreme. the Urbans were deployed inside Italy alongside Praetorians or Marines to put down revolts and detachment of them was stationed in Lugdunum where the Imperial mint was and in Imperial Carthage because its strategic position. They were often sent to reinforce legions during the Year of Four Emperors by Galba and Vitellius when they had no reinforcement legions to draw upon.

Should they be the uber end all be all "beyond elite" legionary unit of the game, no. Should they be included in some capacity, yes.

Im abit confused as to how Urbans worked historically. I know they were a "police force" but were they legionnaires originally that had been "promoted" to Urbans? I've read that they existed as a "counterforce" to the Praetorians to prevent them from getting too powerful...or something along those lines.

[Gumball]

this is already in shogun 2, will probably be in rome 2 as well

[IrishHitman]

this is already in shogun 2, will probably be in rome 2 as well

Is it?

[Gumball]

Is it?

Well in FOTS it is, not sure about vanilla shogun 2, but its not exactly what you describe

There's a garrison stationed at each castle-town who's quality depends on the type of castle you have. As you upgrade the castle, more garrison units are added, and have more experience. It also works as you described, they can't be moved around, they're permanently in the castle. When besieged, the units will fill up slots in addition to any field army you have stationed there.

[IrishHitman]

Well in FOTS it is, not sure about vanilla shogun 2, but its not exactly what you describe

There's a garrison stationed at each castle-town who's quality depends on the type of castle you have. As you upgrade the castle, more garrison units are added, and have more experience. It also works as you described, they can't be moved around, they're permanently in the castle. When besieged, the units will fill up slots in addition to any field army you have stationed there.

That's pretty much the same thing Empire had. I meant specifically different units depending on upgrades, either of public order buildings, castles or a more direct upgrade. Including choosing what kind of units you want for public order vs military purposes.

[wolfbane751]

urbans are fine as long as they arent as overpowered as they were in rome total war

[Adreno]

In fots the types of buildings give different garrisons.. modern ones give modern garrisons and traditional gave traditional garrison forces.. it was done nicely in rots aswell whered you have to pick barracks or townwatch.. barracks chain gave better units and more recruitment slots and the townwatch chain gives better garrisons and other bonuses on public order

[daelin4]

In Shogun2, the castles spawn garrison units to bolster whatever forces you might already have. A tier-one castle will just have one unit of Samurai Retainers (a small unit of sword fantry), but the highest castle will spawn you multiple Ashigaru (spearmen and archers), Samurai Retainers and Onna Bushi (Naginata infantry). I think even high-tiered dojos spawned an additional unit of its respective type, but the Encyclopedia doesn't show it, so I assume it's either a clerical error or it was taken out. These units only spawn when the castle is under siege, and their small size means the garrisons themselves rarely offered much resistance against a large army, but at least you had some units to fight with if the enemy came at you.

Garrisons themselves weren't meant for public order, just to provide some force against attackers without demanding the player leave behind some troops, and upgrading the castle gives a bonus to public order- the spawned garrison units don't actually contribute to it, not directly at least.

Problem was you couldn't retain veterancy if the garrisons got chevrons- they were basically deleted every time a siege was ended.

As for boosting public order, there were ways to do that beyond just shoving troops into the castle in Shogun2, but none of them were in a roundabout manner like "these units have been upgraded therefore public order has been improved". Rather it was a stale "you've mastered an art in the tech tree! Global public order has been boosted by 10%!" Some buildings also gave a permanent bonus to happiness. There were also the occasional Clan Events where you got a specific bonus to trade income or experience to recruits or happiness faction-wide or specific to one province that lasted a certain number of turns.

As for what units, I would say for Roman non-Italian settlements you could start with some Town Watch and eventually work up to region-specific Auxilia or regional units. Say for Roman Athens, you'd have your typical Town Watch, some spear Auxilia and even one unit of Militia Hoplites that the Greeks would have spawned if it wasn't for the Romans taking over and destroyed them. That way the defender could have some unique combos of units and the makeup of defneisve units in a siege will differ according to the region- in Germania your units could include axemen units you normally can't train; in Carthage you could have Poeni infantry; in Spawn the units can include Iberian Infantry; Crete you could have more Archer Auxilia than melee, and maybe even one unit of Cretan archer militia.

The Greek equivalent would be instead of Town Watch and Auxilia you just get variants of Hoplite units. In Gaul you could spawn with a Gallic Hoplite militia, which have differing traits and different models but otherwise act in the same manner.

For larger cities like Rome and Carthage, you could have urban cohorts that, unlike the supersoldiers in RTW, were just militia versions of regular legionaries- perhaps slightly more defensive oriented or have better morale bonus or some other slight stat variation; or maybe even lacking the pila throw and instead be a form of improved Triarii. We don't know what quality they were or what equipment they used in reality so we should just leave them as some sort of top-tier garrison unit like how the Onna Bushi were in Shogun2- excellent morale and much more reasonable power than your other garrison troops, but obviously you get one and they can't last long against a large army.

We don't know whether the garrison idea will be in Rome2, but since it was in Empire and slightly changed in Shogun2, and seeing as how useful and popular it was, it's not outrageous to suggest that it would also be in the next upcoming title. So far I don't see anyone complaining about how that feature needs to be removed. It was developed so that players didn't have to leave cities entirely empty when moving their armies onwards. It's a very good idea that should be put into Rome2, whether refined further or as-is (preferably the former).

What I also liked from Empire were Dragoons- units that weren't terribly special on the battlefield but gave a larger garrison boost than other units. So on top of regular low-level militia troops you can train and untrainable garrison spawns, you could also train a unit specifically designed to be optimal towards keeping settlements green-faced. Most of the time I trained Dragoons it was so I can put them into troublesome settlements that weren't under threat of attack. Pricier than a unit of militia but it was better than training lots of militia. Hopefully in Rome2 at least some factions could feature a unit like that.

[Ichon]

This might make more sense than levies especially at the province level. Such units could patrol the province but not beyond the controlled borders so if province is down to just the walled city and 1 region there are only 2 places such levies could patrol.

[The Great Montrose]

Instead of having to garrison field armies to improve public order, why not have a system whereby you can add to and upgrade garrison units?

Meaning that you can spend cash to add to the town watch, spend cash to upgrade their military capabilities in case of sieges, and of course the public order buildings giving them certain bonuses? Militarily, they'd function just as the citizens do in Empire, they fill the empty army slots in a roster during sieges, but can't be deployed outside the town in any way.

In terms of the Romans, you could have everything from lower magistrates to urban cohorts as options.

What do you guys think?

I like this idea, means you woudnt have to leave troops in your cities

[RexImperator]

According to Dando-Collins the Urban Cohorts were made up of freedmen and their duties were along the lines of a heavy duty paramilitary police force, similar to riot police or a swat team. I don't think they were really designed to counterbalance the Praetorians, more to be the dedicated garrison of Rome and other areas of strategic importance whereas the Praetorians were meant to serve more at the Emperor's discretion. They ere not paid as much as praetorians nor were they regarded as highly though they were paid more than regular legionnaries.

Were I to include them in the game I would depict them as legionnaries with some form of public order bonus, similar to dragoons in ETW, and slightly higher than average stats and recruitable only from certain buildings (i.e an Imperial Mint or "imperial Grain Wharehouse") in combination with a brracks.

Praetorians would be your Uber Legion and german Bodyguards your limited number awesome infantry corps and the Equites Singulares your uber cavalry.

[Lockcaps]

According to Dando-Collins the Urban Cohorts were made up of freedmen and their duties were along the lines of a heavy duty paramilitary police force, similar to riot police or a swat team. I don't think they were really designed to counterbalance the Praetorians, more to be the dedicated garrison of Rome and other areas of strategic importance whereas the Praetorians were meant to serve more at the Emperor's discretion. They ere not paid as much as praetorians nor were they regarded as highly though they were paid more than regular legionnaries.

Were I to include them in the game I would depict them as legionnaries with some form of public order bonus, similar to dragoons in ETW, and slightly higher than average stats and recruitable only from certain buildings (i.e an Imperial Mint or "imperial Grain Wharehouse") in combination with a brracks.

Praetorians would be your Uber Legion and german Bodyguards your limited number awesome infantry corps and the Equites Singulares your uber cavalry.

Hmm...Praetorians as an uber legion? The only thing they did was guard the emperor in Rome - surely a legionnaire stationed in say, Britain, would be the better soldier due to the experience. If anything i could see them being a garrison unit for larger cities, or a unit that always follows the emperor(Not like a bodyguard, you just get them as a bonus)

ALSO MAKE THEM WEAR BLACK AND PURPLE /puts on flamesuit

[RexImperator]

Hmm...Praetorians as an uber legion? The only thing they did was guard the emperor in Rome - surely a legionnaire stationed in say, Britain, would be the better soldier due to the experience. If anything i could see them being a garrison unit for larger cities, or a unit that always follows the emperor(Not like a bodyguard, you just get them as a bonus)

ALSO MAKE THEM WEAR BLACK AND PURPLE /puts on flamesuit

Praetorians were at least considered to be an elite formation and on a few occasions "died in their ranks" without breaking or routing. It's widely believed that Praetorians were recruited at least in part from among experienced legionnaires.

They shoudln't be a "beyond elite" style unit that can't be broken or routed under any circumstances but their stats should reflect that they are given the newest shiniest armour and weapons, are paid more and better and led by veterans and have decorated soldiers in their ranks.

[AngryTitusPullo]

I like Urban as spawned garrison units for higher tier cities if not just Rome. Praetorian as elite units should be recruited in Rome but should be limited, maybe up to 4 cohorts only.

[Bobz]

I like Urban as spawned garrison units for higher tier cities if not just Rome. Praetorian as elite units should be recruited in Rome but should be limited, maybe up to 4 cohorts only.

Yeah I agree with you here. I would like to see urban cohorts as garrison-only units, and the Praetorian's as a limited recruitment elite unit. Although perhaps nine cohorts, as that was there historical number.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Yeah I agree with you here. I would like to see urban cohorts as garrison-only units, and the Praetorian's as a limited recruitment elite unit. Although perhaps nine cohorts, as that was there historical number.

Well not always nine cohorts. In any case total cohorts depend on game balancing more than history.

As long as the Praetorian cohorts are not sold separately as DLC I don't mind how many cohorts are there.