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    Dave Strider's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building


    New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire, CNN reported Saturday morning.

    According to Kelly, of the nine wounded, three suffered gunshot wounds and six were hit by fragments.

    Gunfire broke out shortly after 9 a.m. on Friday when a gunman identified as 58-year old Jeffrey Johnson shot and killed former coworker Steve Ercolino near the Empire State Building.

    Johnson attempted to flee the scene, but was thwarted after a construction worker who followed him tipped off police officers.

    Police approached Johnson who aimed his gun at the officers before police opened fire, killing him on the spot.

    The NYPD said officers fired 16 rounds with one officer shooting nine and another seven.

    During a press conference held on Friday, Mayor Bloomberg had said some individuals may have been shot at by NYPD.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1830007.html

    New York (CNN) -- A disgruntled former apparel designer was killed Friday morning in a hail of police gunfire in front of the Empire State Building after he shot and killed a co-worker and engaged in a gunbattle with two officers, authorities said.
    Police officers fired a total of 16 rounds; one officer shot nine while another one shot seven, the New York Police Department said.
    An investigation is under way, authorities said.
    The violence erupted just as visitors began to queue up to ascend the famous New York skyscraper in one of Manhattan's busiest neighborhoods.
    Police identified the shooter as 58-year-old Jeffrey Johnson, who was apparently laid off from his job as a designer of women's accessories at Hazan Import last year.
    "We have on tape the perpetrator pulled his gun out and tried to shoot at the cops," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. "Whether he got off any bullets or not, to be determined."Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."
    Earlier Friday, Bloomberg told reporters that some of the wounded may have been inadvertently hit in the crossfire or by ricocheting bullets.
    Six of the wounded were treated and released at hospitals as of Friday evening, while three others remained hospitalized, Kelly said.
    One of those wounded, Erica Solar, was on her way to get a cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts when a bullet tore through the back of her leg, her brother said. The Manhattan receptionist is being treated at the city's Bellevue Hospital.
    Robert Asika, a 23-year-old city tour guide, was on his way to work when he got caught in the crossfire.
    "When I turned around, I saw a guy reach in his suit and he pulled out a gun," he told CNN affiliate WCBS. "I guess he shot at the police officer. And the police officer shot him. And one of them shot me in the arm, and I fell."
    The slain victim was identified as Steven Ercolino by the president of State University of New York at Oneonta, where he was a 1992 graduate.
    "We were saddened to learn that a member of our Oneonta alumni community was the victim of this tragic and senseless killing," Nancy Kleniewski said. "Our thoughts and prayers are with Steve's family."
    Ercolino, 41, is listed as a vice president of sales at Hazan Import Corp., according to his LinkedIn profile.
    "It's not something that should happen to a loving person like that," his brother Paul Ercolino told CNN on Friday night. "He's going to be so missed by everybody. He was a light of so many lives."
    Johnson had a longstanding dispute with Ercolino "apparently centered on the fact that Ercolino was not selling -- at least in Johnson's opinion -- as much of his product ... as he wanted him to," according to Kelly.
    The suspect lost his job last year "as a result of downsizing," but continued to return to the company regularly, having "a confrontation with Ercolino virtually every time he went back," said the police commissioner.
    Both men filed harassment complaints against each other in April 2011, Kelly added.
    On Friday, Johnson was wearing a business suit and carrying a briefcase as he waited for Ercolino outside his business on West 33rd Street. When Ercolino appeared, "Without any conversation, he shot him once in the head and then shot him in the torso," said the police commissioner.
    Johnson then walked east, before eventually turning north. A construction worker was among those who dashed after the gunman after the initial gunshots. Eventually, they alerted two police officers in front of the Empire State Building that the suspect "just killed a man around the corner," Kelly said.
    The police commissioner said the suspect pulled his gun out of his briefcase as the officers approached, pointing at them. The officers then fatally shot Johnson.
    A brief surveillance video released Friday night by police show the man walking behind a large planter on a busy street. He appears to point something as two officers approach, coming to within a few feet of him. Then, as bystanders run off in all directions, the man falls abruptly to the ground after apparently being shot.
    Another video shot by an Australian tourist offered a street-level glimpse of the shooting, which prompted road closures and frightened onlookers.
    At least two police officers appear in the video with their guns drawn over a man who is lying on his back. The man appears to be alive, with his hands partly outstretched.
    The camera then pans to others who are apparently injured, as pedestrians duck behind buildings on Manhattan's Fifth Avenue.
    Witnesses said police shot Johnson at least three times.
    "I heard the gunshots," said Anika Basu, who was on a bus near the building when the shooting happened. "I looked towards the left and saw three people fall. ... The whole entire crosswalk emptied and people were running.
    "We didn't realize if it was an actual gunshot or what," she said.
    "It's just a crazy scene here," added Rebecca Fox, who works across the street from the Empire State Building. She had been getting coffee and had her headphones on when she saw people running.
    "When I walked across the street, I saw a woman who had been shot in the foot. And she was just in shock, sitting there," Fox said. "I looked down, I saw another man had been laying on the ground, and he wasn't moving."
    One witness -- 22-year-old Max Kaplan -- said he heard at least nine shots and saw ambulances race to the scene.
    "We're all very shaken up at the office," he said.
    Aaron Herman, a CNN iReporter, painted a portrait of confusion.
    "It was a little chaotic. Police had barricaded the area, and I saw one woman who was a victim. I think she had been grazed," he said. "Some said they heard around three 'pops' and ran into nearby local stores to be safe."
    Authorities initially reported that nine people were wounded in the incident, but later revised that number to eight. Then on Friday night, Kelly said nine bystanders were wounded.
    Shortly after the incident, Bellevue Hospital reported that it was treating six victims for gunshot wounds. None of the injuries was considered life-threatening.
    Witnesses recount chaotic, unsettling scene at Empire State shooting
    Police say Johnson used a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun -- which held eight rounds -- and was carrying extra ammunition in his briefcase. He purchased the weapon legally in 1991 in Florida, but did not have a permit to carry it in New York City.
    The former Manhattan resident did not appear to have had a criminal record, but authorities were still checking, Bloomberg added.
    His neighbor, Gisela Casella, described Johnson as a quiet animal lover whose death left her "shocked."
    "He was the nicest guy. He must have snapped or something. I don't know," she said.
    His landlord, Guillermo Suarez, said he lived alone and that he'd seen Johnson leave the building around 8 a.m. in a suit.
    By around 9 a.m., the shootings had prompted local and federal authorities to close several streets around Fifth Avenue and 34th Street, snarling traffic in the heart of Manhattan.
    President Barack Obama learned about the incident around 9:30 a.m. from top aides, the White House said. The shooting did not appear to be linked to terrorism, authorities said.
    What to know about the Empire State Building
    The Empire State Building is one of the most famous skyscrapers in the world and one of New York City's best-known tourist attractions.
    Each year, about 4 million people visit the building's two observation decks. At more than 1,453 feet tall, the landmark building reaches more than a quarter-mile into the sky.
    The area also typically has a large security presence.
    "There's always a focus and concentration on the building," retired police officer Lou Palumbo said. "That building gets special attention."
    The Empire State Building Co. said in a statement Friday that "the building is fully operational at this time" and that police are investigating the incident.
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justic...ate/index.html

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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    What surprises me is that these guys are supposed to be trained police. You would think the NYPD of all police forces would teach its offices how to shoot at a suspect in or near a crowd of people. I can understand one or two people being wounded by police gun fire, but nine? Seriously? They need to send these cops back to the academy.

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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    What surprises me is that these guys are supposed to be trained police. You would think the NYPD of all police forces would teach its offices how to shoot at a suspect in or near a crowd of people. I can understand one or two people being wounded by police gun fire, but nine? Seriously? They need to send these cops back to the academy.
    One can see you're not aware how many times the military riflemen miss in spite of having a much higher standard of training as well as the odds of having to use their weapon on a daily basis on deployment being uhh...exponentially higher. Not counting suppression fire.
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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    One can see you're not aware how many times the military riflemen miss in spite of having a much higher standard of training as well as the odds of having to use their weapon on a daily basis on deployment being uhh...exponentially higher. Not counting suppression fire.
    I'm a pretty decent shot on a range, but the first time I fired my weapon while pumped up on adrenaline I probably wouldn't have hit a Suburban, just goes everywhere. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of training and even then the situation dictates.
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    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    I'm a pretty decent shot on a range, but the first time I fired my weapon while pumped up on adrenaline I probably wouldn't have hit a Suburban
    Yeah, tactical shooting is a lot different than conventional range shooting. And the former is sorely missed with Police unless you are SWAT or the equivalent.

    And if you have seen the vidcaps from the security tapes, there were people running everywhere. The NYPD were directing them to hit the ground but they just ran. Understandable, but given the recent history and nature of shootings in public places these Police were likely thinking the worst and wanted to end it ASAP.

    People can still run into your LoF after you squeeze off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Or he may have been simply shot after shooting his co-worker.
    Wouldn't enjoy being Police in that situation. Probably enjoy being this theoretical defender of freedom even less given the high probability he/she also gets shot multiple times.

    Or maybe we should all where t-shirts that say we are armed and that if you are Police arriving on active shooting call, please do not shoot. Im the good guy with the gun.
    Last edited by mrmouth; August 26, 2012 at 06:02 PM.
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    See, if police have a hard time taking down a perp without injuring others in a mass shooting, then surely it would be a logical policy argument that if more everyday joes had guns, this would be prevented with no innocent bystanders being hit...

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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    Wouldn't enjoy being Police in that situation.
    Oddly they do fine in states which allow concealed carry. They don't have to like it.
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    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    One can see you're not aware how many times the military riflemen miss in spite of having a much higher standard of training as well as the odds of having to use their weapon on a daily basis on deployment being uhh...exponentially higher. Not counting suppression fire.
    Yes, but when they miss they don't tend to wound other people. At least not at the range. But i wouldn't try and compare soldiers missing in the heat of battle to police missing one guy. they are similar situations, but not exactly the same.


    My point still stands. I rely on these people to protect me from various criminals. I would expect they have some more training for these kind of incidents. Call me unreasonable. Nine people wounded from police bullets in unacceptable to me.

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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Azoth View Post
    Yes, but when they miss they don't tend to wound other people. At least not at the range. But i wouldn't try and compare soldiers missing in the heat of battle to police missing one guy. they are similar situations, but not exactly the same.
    Are you saying a bullet from a criminal's gun is less dangerous than a bullet from an enemy soldier's gun?


    My point still stands. I rely on these people to protect me from various criminals. I would expect they have some more training for these kind of incidents. Call me unreasonable. Nine people wounded from police bullets in unacceptable to me.
    They do have training. You just expect FIREARM MAGIC! That's the problem here.
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    Default Re: NYPD Admits: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath Of Gunbattle At Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Are you saying a bullet from a criminal's gun is less dangerous than a bullet from an enemy soldier's gun?
    No, but i am saying is an irrelevant comparison.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    They do have training. You just expect FIREARM MAGIC! That's the problem here.
    No, i was actually proven wrong. They really didn't shoot and wound 9 people. They shot and wounded 3 people while fragments wounded the other six. Thats acceptable. Thats something i would expect of police officers.

    Also its not firearms magic to expect police officer with firearms training to not shoot and wound 9 people.
    Last edited by Vanoi; August 26, 2012 at 03:07 PM.

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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    To their credit though, these two had apparently never fired their weapons (in defense) before. But still, I agree...accuracy is expected of our Police, given their obvious handicaps of only being able to use Pistols.
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    I'm sorry but this story is obviously made up. 1) NYC has really strict gun control laws so this clearly couldn't have happened, and 2) cops receive training and stuff so they couldn't have shot so poorly. Anyway, the ones at fault here are the NRA and that thrice-cursed Gun LobbyTM and of course the Tea Party.


    (Would also probably be best if the OP was expanded, otherwise this'll likely get closed)
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    I'm sorry but this story is obviously made up. 1) NYC has really strict gun control laws so this clearly couldn't have happened, and 2) cops receive training and stuff so they couldn't have shot so poorly. Anyway, the ones at fault here are the NRA and that thrice-cursed Gun LobbyTM and of course the Tea Party.


    (Would also probably be best if the OP was expanded, otherwise this'll likely get closed)
    The police officers where unable to properly train because there was a Sara Palin picture in their dorms in the Academy. The NRA did it.
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    You see if everyone in the crowd had been armed then all this could've been avoided.
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    Dave Strider's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by cpreston5 View Post
    You see if everyone in the crowd had been armed then all this could've been avoided.
    Part of me thinks that if everyone had guns, and everyone saw police firing, and innocents going down, then everyone would start shooting at the police
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    Part of me thinks that if everyone had guns, and everyone saw police firing, and innocents going down, then everyone would start shooting at the police
    Which will probably ended Police brutality once and for all.
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Police shootings and the criticism afterwords is always amusing to me. Accuracy takes practice and police don't practice daily. If anything they probably have a course of fire that they have to pass annually or semi-annually and that's the only time they fire their weapons. Beyond that using your weapon in a real life scenario means massive adrenaline rush that is very difficult to control. Most of the time when people shoot someone in real life they fire many rounds, what people would describe as excessive, because while you might be trained to fire once or twice at center mass the reality is you're going to fire until your targets goes down and is no longer a threat to you. As far as six being hit by shrapnel, that's probably extremely minor wounds so it's really nothing too crazy.

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    Imperial's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jin View Post
    Police shootings and the criticism afterwords is always amusing to me. Accuracy takes practice and police don't practice daily. If anything they probably have a course of fire that they have to pass annually or semi-annually and that's the only time they fire their weapons.

    This, this, and this.


    I got a friend who's a weapon instructor for this very thing. The police in Florida have to go once every year to the range to get re-certified. He says that he has seen 10 year-olds shoot better than some of the patrol men, which probably have never fired their guns since the last time they got re-certified a year ago.

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    Dave Strider's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    I provided two different sources...both from highly trusted news sites...I'm pretty sure it's legit.
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    there can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun,
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    but the union makes us strong.

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    Default Re: NYPD: 9 Bystanders Wounded by Police Gunfire in Aftermath of Gunbattle at Empire State Building

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Strider View Post
    I provided two different sources...both from highly trusted news sites...I'm pretty sure it's legit.
    He's trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    I'm sorry but this story is obviously made up. 1) NYC has really strict gun control laws so this clearly couldn't have happened, and 2) cops receive training and stuff so they couldn't have shot so poorly. Anyway, the ones at fault here are the NRA and that thrice-cursed Gun LobbyTM and of course the Tea Party.


    (Would also probably be best if the OP was expanded, otherwise this'll likely get closed)
    Yes, and if everyone out there had a gun we might have had a massive firefight and dozens of wounded. Nice!

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