Spanish roster

[Aristodemus]

Did Castile Leon not field spearmen? I find it hard to believe considering their neighbours. Also I read in an Osprey book that they had halberdiers, and finally there is only tercio pikemen, no tercio arquebusiers/musketeers and tercio swordsmen/javelin infantry. This seems to be the norm in any mod I play without exception.

Any historian knows something about this? is this roster accurate or does castile-leon need a roster revision?

[Paragon]

Castile, until the pike and shot era and the glorious Tercios had mediocre spearmen, nothing to be compared to the actual different units of another factions. If anything, their spear militia should be a tad stronger and more expensive to make up for the lack of other spear units and that's that. They make up for it with the Heavy Cavalry, while Aragon has the elite Almughavars. No idea about the Portuguese though.

[Judeman266]

"Spanish Arquebusiers" are the arquebusiers in the tercio. Just because you don't see the name you want doesn't mean the roster is inaccurate.

http://www.pressdat.com/mtw2/Spain/Spain.html

[Aristodemus]

ok, I also see Halberdiers on this link, what about the tercio swordsmen/javelin, was the source I read bad? there should be another tercio unit I think. By the way I was just making a question about something I don't know, no need to be hostile, I don't WANT any name in the roster.

[Humakty]

I can see javelinmen in their roster, as well as the sword and buckler men. Those two can fill the bill I guess.

[Gogolometro]

In early era the iberian faction doesn't fight like french, italians, germans or english. Their spear unit is spear militia who has no chance versus the armored cavalry of moors, your enemy most of time. The war is won working in a combo of wise battlefield choice, javelins in loose formation, fast atack of generals and heavy cavalry with jinites. No spears, archer lines in iberia. Tercio is 200-300 years after early era campaign starting time.

[War lord]

I think jinites get an Anti-Cav bonus, SS may have removed it though.

[Paragon]

They have the bonus javelins have agaisnt mounted men. They did remove the Almughavar's bonus, which makes me mad as hell.

[Aristodemus]

Yes but the javelin men and sword and buckler are not unique to castile-leon, and the tercio units should be unique to them, so I think that part of the tercios was left out, also because these units are recruitable very early while tercios are very late.

[Black_ice_Spain]

We had no real army those times, only our ancestors defending from moors.

If castile should get some special early unit it should be some awesome one in ambush (but mostly peasants), not too usefull in MTW so...

Castile never fought versus european countries so they didnt need any kind of special spearmen (until tercios era and such), first because we all were christian, and because castile was occuped by an islamic faction, i doubt pope would have allowed it (not that any1 would be interested in 3 small provinces in iberia, the only thing which was not conquered by moors).

When i say castile, call it whatever you want, since idk when castile was created, sometime after moor's landing in iberia i think.

I think its okay as it is, since SS is short in units (limit reached), adding an ambush semi-crappy unit (not to usefull in TW imo) wont do much favor, and that's the best we could have in those times (apart from brave warriors ). I even think castile having every normal unit like other european factions its a little unrealistic, but better for game balance (maybe a pair of army summon scripts with crusader units, since many of them helped in a few castile battles, specially at the end of the war, but not really needed).

Best way to currently beat moors is spam a few cannon fodder and make full-cav armies (including generals) ._. IMO

[Judeman266]

Javelinmen were used in Iberia even before Roman times, so obviously Castile is not the only faction in Iberia to use them. Sword and Buckler men were developed around the 1380s and wore light mail. Later, beginning around 1470 they wear Renaissance Half Plate. They are only available to Castile-Leon, Aragon, and Sicily. It was a troop type that originated in Central Iberia (Castile). That does not mean that Castile was the only faction to have them. Since 1300 Sicily was under the authority of the King of Aragon so he had some troops in Sicily armed in the same fashion. Beginning in the late 1400s the Crown of Castile and Aragon were ruled jointly, so they shared military units. That is why Aragon has Tercio Pikemen.

[k/t]

"They have the bonus javelins have agaisnt mounted men."

What bonus is that?

[Aristodemus]

but the tercio pikemen is jus one third of the tercios, asssuming spanish arquebusiers are the second third, there's still one tercio unit missing, unless I am mistaken. I don't think sword and buckler were intented as a tercio unit because you can recruit them earlier.

[Strengelicher]

but the tercio pikemen is jus one third of the tercios, asssuming spanish arquebusiers are the second third, there's still one tercio unit missing, unless I am mistaken. I don't think sword and buckler were intented as a tercio unit because you can recruit them earlier.

If my understanding is correct, the tercio was a mixed unit, and indeed tercio meant "a third". However, this was not referring to a third of the infantry type thrown into the mix, but rather to the division of a unit in three subunits, each one referred to as a "tercio", or in other words a third of the greater unit. The subdivision was to serve tactical purposes, the three tercios would ... well ... do something together which is quite difficult to explain. You would have to see it.

Pikemen, by the way, translates into Spanish as "hombres que pican", which again is an abbreviation of "hombres que pican y atacan con orgullo y ferocidad come se ve en la penìnsula espanhola olé". Combine that with the complicated interwoven movement pattern of the tercios and you get a feeling for Iberian warfare during the middle ages.

[Black_ice_Spain]

but the tercio pikemen is jus one third of the tercios, asssuming spanish arquebusiers are the second third, there's still one tercio unit missing, unless I am mistaken. I don't think sword and buckler were intented as a tercio unit because you can recruit them earlier.

third thercio are just swordsmen, i dont think any special type of them.

What made tercios so good is that they were really good soldiers (profesionals) and that pike+musket/arquebusier combo was awesome at those times, since cannons couldnt damage infantry a lot yet. Not the type of unit (except the mega-long pikes).

So what would make them special in TATW is that they should start with ++++experience, you can match any of them with experienced and well-equiped soldiers plus a few long pikes on any other faction, but no other faction could do it at those times except spain (or at least they did not try, i think tercios were created before the gold from america came).

Being 100% historically accurate tercios would be a mix of those three, not separate groups of different units.

[Paragon]

"They have the bonus javelins have agaisnt mounted men."

What bonus is that?

+3. Every javelin has this bonus because of the whole physics thing. They also count with Elephants, obviously.

By the way Aristo, your post gets a bit funny and confusing when you know Spanish, since "tercio" is our word for "third"

[Aristodemus]

yeah it's kinda funny when the you can say a third tercio, kinda like a third "third".

[Ichon]

I am not sure what the missing components of tercio might be that is referred about. Tercio was basically formation of pikemen and musketeers. Sometimes with halberdiers mixed with pikemen or with swords and buckler men in support but the main support for tercio was always cavalry. Tercio were not as weak as older phalanx from the flanks but they were weaker and especially with the advent of mobile field artillery tercio needed cavalry support. Sword and buckler men or any swordsmen employed with pikes was eventually proven not very useful due to reach low reach and vulnerability to cavalry. The only time it has some good effects was when mixed into the 2nd rank of a pike formation to enter into range of opposing pikes and cause havoc to the close packed pikemen.

[k/t]

I've never heard of this +3 bonus. It must be hardcoded and hidden. Then again, if it was taken off the Almughavars, it's not hardcoded. Where in the game files does it appear?

The "thrown" attribute gives a big bonus against elephants, which is why javelin units in RC 2.0 have mount_effect elephant -10 to compensate.

[Paragon]

I've never heard of this +3 bonus. It must be hardcoded and hidden. Then again, if it was taken off the Almughavars, it's not hardcoded. Where in the game files does it appear?

The "thrown" attribute gives a big bonus against elephants, which is why javelin units in RC 2.0 have mount_effect elephant -10 to compensate.

No, +3 for being a javelin (IIRC), and in vanilla Almughavars had a +4 bonus agaisnt cavalry in close combat (the secondary weapon I think), which taking into account this gains charged agaisnt charging enemy cavalry and won it's accurate.