Proper historically accurate names?

[Semper_Fidelis]

a post that i was just at made me think about how they should have the proper names for settlements and units. so like instead of rome it would be called roma or syracuse would be called syracusai. and instead of gallic spearman they would be called gaeroas and so people would know what they are they could have in brackets (spear warriors). i hope CA doesnt think we are stupid and makes things more immersive.

[complete noob:(]

Or they could make those completely optional. Because personally I don't want to spend a minute figuring out what a unit is supposed to be. I am completely fine with this idea, as long as it is optional

[Semper_Fidelis]

Or they could make those completely optional. Because personally I don't want to spend a minute figuring out what a unit is supposed to be. I am completely fine with this idea, as long as it is optional

i like it, maybe when you install the game you would have the option.

[boofhead]

I think it makes things unnecessarily complicated. Like EB unit names. If a game is in English, then unit names should be English translations.

[Anna_Gein]

Since native names weren't a big problem with Shogun 2 I don't really see why that would be the case with Rome 2.
English translations should be provided for people who don't want it. Avoiding by this way any problem.

So yeah native names.

[krisslanza]

Since native names weren't a big problem with Shogun 2 I don't really see why that would be the case with Rome 2.
English translations should be provided for people who don't want it. Avoiding by this way any problem.

So yeah native names.

The thing is words like "yari" or "katana" or "nodachi" are pretty easy to say and read. Heck, they didn't call Bow Ashigaru, Yumi Ashigaru - Japanese bows are called Yumi, after all.

Compared to say some name that's like Skjdhjkasdhdkjass or something else crazy. (Okay, I know, that's not a word, but I don't remember a single EB unit right now).

In the case of Shogun they simply named the units (generally) off the proper weapon they used. What EB does, is pretty much name everything in gibberish that most people probably can't read and everyone probably just calls every unit "That unit with pointy sticks" or something. Unless you can actually read ancient languages.

[jirisys]

One coudl take an logically extreme extent and have Germanic names written entirely in Runic and umlauts. And Greek names in classical Greek alphabet, and of course they'll probably add in China as well, with their classical Chinese characters. Not modern of course, 'cuz that's not historically accurate. And while we're at it, update Shogun2 with Kanji.

One could take it to the logically extreme extent and call spearmen "Humans with sticks that have a metal tip attached into them".

What EB does, is pretty much name everything in gibberish that most people probably can't read and everyone probably just calls every unit "That unit with pointy sticks" or something. Unless you can actually read ancient languages.

Read this:

Pantodapoi.

What does it read like?

Pantodapoi.

Why does it read Pantodapoi?

Because it's an ancient word written in latin characters.

Can you read ΠΑΝΤΟΔΑΠΟΙ?

Possibly not.

Why not? Because it's written exactly how it was written in ancient greek.

Do you care to know the meaning of the word?

No. You can just type Pantodapoi, with no hassle. And it's the same as writing "Native", except, you would actually have to learn a new word. And god knows we can't have any learning in a game. Might give us a headache.

But can you read ROMA?

Yes.

Congratulations! You read an ancient language! It means Rome in Latin.

Okay, what's next? Try to read Pantodapoi again.

Pan. To. Da. Poi.

There. You read it! You read an ancient language!

It wasn't that bloody hard, was it now?

Now try with Khûveshâvagânê Shâhvâr.

~Jirisys ()

[Cruciatus]

What is EB?

[-FrOzeN-]

What is EB?

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31

[jirisys]

What is EB?

Some say it's one of the best mods ever. Lots say it has ruined the perception of TWers because they now want ancient names for cities and units, and too much historical accuracy for their game. Most people just think of it as another extensively worked mod, whether it's their cup of tea or not.

~Jirisys ()

[AzureNight]

The anti-historical accuracy crowd would cry if they did this.

[daelin4]

One coudl take an logically extreme extent and have Germanic names written entirely in Runic and umlauts. And Greek names in classical Greek alphabet, and of course they'll probably add in China as well, with their classical Chinese characters. Not modern of course, 'cuz that's not historically accurate. And while we're at it, update Shogun2 with Kanji.

In other words no. They could add in the "proper" name in a Information/ Details window, but if I'm to play a game in English I expect English names. Original spelling pronunciation/ language/ dialect serves no practical game purposes. MP players simply called Katana Samurai KatSams and their ashigaru variants Loanswords or Loanies anyways.

[Bobz]

I never liked the ridiculously complex names. Give us the easiest and most commonly known ones any day. What was the name EB called Carthage, because things like that are the other side of the fun line for me.

[UsulDaNeriak]

This game is called ROME, right?

So i would prefer, that all units, also the german, gallic and greek ones, would have the names the Romans gave them; not e.g. the native german names, or whatever tribe/language. Btw, we have not so much knowledge about details of some barbarian languages in this timeframe.

If there is an option to switch to english names or any other translation, that would be ok for me. Even if I personally would not use it.

I was also surprised that they called the leader of a Legion "General". Well it was a Legatus. And we can dispute for hours if this rank was rather complimentary to a Colonel or a General.

[jirisys]

So i would prefer, that all units, also the german, gallic and greek ones, would have the names the Romans gave them; not e.g. the native german names, or whatever tribe/language. Btw, we have not so much knowledge about details of some barbarian languages in this timeframe.

There would be around 30 different units named "Barbarus Lancearii".

I think both arguments are flawed, for completely different reasons.

The argument of the "Englishers" (as I call them starting from today) is basically "We don't want to read ancient complicated words in unit names", which is perfectly fine.
But when asked why they respond with either "It's a game in ENGLISH, it should have ENGLISH names" or "It's just a game, why do you want so much historical accuracy? Next you'll ask the names written in ancient scripts too!".

First reason falls apart when you realize people from around the globe play the game. Do you think there's a translation for georgian players? They'll have to go with russian (if they can speak it) or english (if they speak it) or arabic (if there is).

Second, if you think this, you shouldn't go to high school (I imagine most of these people are still in High School) because who cares to know how the world works, what's next? Making thesis about issues in the world? That's too complicated.

Then, the argument of the "Ancienters" is "well EB/some other mod did it and it was really good; reading names in ancient languages is fun, and they should implement that".

Well, Rome 2 has a deadline. Also, people have to be paid when working in Rome 2. Ancient unit names are a pain in the to write, because it consists of both speculation and extensive research. I have taken around 4 months to (hopefully) have all the names of a single faction's units accurate for the period, 4 months for around 15 units. It's too much, and the cost to implement this is too high for CA.

I would like ancient unit names of course, but it's almost impossible for CA to implement. So I say, write them in english, but for a different, and more thought out reason.

~Jirisys ()

[daelin4]

The argument of the "Englishers" (as I call them starting from today) is basically "We don't want to read ancient complicated words in unit names", which is perfectly fine.
But when asked why they respond with either "It's a game in ENGLISH, it should have ENGLISH names" or "It's just a game, why do you want so much historical accuracy? Next you'll ask the names written in ancient scripts too!".

A game in English should be meant for an English-Speaking audience. This isn't some cultural hegemony, it's the target audience wanting to be able to understand the game content.

You're basically saying "it's fine but you don't have a good reason." So wanting a British-based company to create a game in English (like they've always done) so that the English audience can enjoy the various media within it is such an outrageous idea that anyone who agrees does not deserve post-secondary education, on precisely that basis alone?

The purpose for various deviations from "just English" serves a practical purpose. Can players talk about Katana Samurai if their names were written entirely in Kanji? Well yeah they can, but it would revolve largely in the form of "this is a terrible game why call ID them in Kanji when they should just settle with Katana Samurai?".

You may not like the reason, bu that doesn't make it a bad reason. Language serves as a tool to understanding the game as it communicates with you. Any smart game developer will have language at least for basic understanding of the game such as when the advisor talks to you. The Fukkan and Geisha in Shogun2 speak English because it's meant for the player to understand and take note. Generals, agents, and unit phrases in battle mode were in Japanese because your understanding of what they're saying had no influence in how the game would work out. All the Japanese spoken in the game did not detract to how well you played the game, only the degree of immersion. The same will happen with Rome2. The use of various linguistics will be added strategically and not saturated to the point where you had to take a language course to come close to appreciating the game.

The opposite would be Empire where most non-English factions did not speak English but otherwise had English text and advisor voices. Again the purpose was to allow the player to understand what needed to be understood. Most get the idea that one of their Indian army guys babbling something as you right-click somewhere in the campaign map that he's saying yes or he's saying no. And you're going to figure out which when he moves or not.

[athanaric]

The purpose for various deviations from "just English" serves a practical purpose. Can players talk about Katana Samurai if their names were written entirely in Kanji? Well yeah they can, but it would revolve largely in the form of "this is a terrible game why call ID them in Kanji when they should just settle with Katana Samurai?".

Terrible example. First of all, you're confusing language with script. Those are two totally separate things. Some languages are officially written in more than one alphabet (as alternatives or depending on country, not the retarded way they chose in Japan). Like my favourite example, Persian, which is written in Arabic, Cyrillic, or Latin letters, depending on where the text in question was issued (also, contrary to what some people may think, the Latin letters fit that language best while the Arabic ones are the most inadequate). I think nobody has seriously been advocating the use of non-Latin alphabets in the game.
Secondly, "Katana Samurai" is one of the stupidest unit names I've ever run across. It's not what they called themselves (that would be samurai or bushi or whatever) and in real life, they wouldn't run around with just swords. It's a bit like calling a modern soldier "knife infantryman" because he carries a knife as a last resort close combat weapon.

[jirisys]

A game in English should be meant for an English-Speaking audience. This isn't some cultural hegemony, it's the target audience wanting to be able to understand the game content.

Okay. Alienate the majority of TW players. Great job.

I said that the dreams of the Ancienters were too far-fetched, and that the reasons given by most Englishers are idiotic, because they can simply point that the ideas of the Ancienters are too far fetched. Yet they go around these tangents that only shows them as willingly ignorant.

Since most Ancienters wouldn't make the ancient names compulsory, the Englishers should only bother with why they shouldn't work on the ancient names at all. A point I already stated.

You're basically saying "it's fine but you don't have a good reason." So wanting a British-based company to create a game in English (like they've always done) so that the English audience can enjoy the various media within it is such an outrageous idea that anyone who agrees does not deserve post-secondary education, on precisely that basis alone?

No it isn't outrageous, but you're arguing for the game language.

The purpose for various deviations from "just English" serves a practical purpose. Can players talk about Katana Samurai if their names were written entirely in Kanji? Well yeah they can, but it would revolve largely in the form of "this is a terrible game why call ID them in Kanji when they should just settle with Katana Samurai?".

Script does not equal language. Samurai is a borrowing from Japanese. So 200 years ago you would have never heard of "Samurai" or "Ashigaru" in a conversation between two people who only speak english.

Essentially you are saying "Let's name the units with Japanese words that are present in the english lexicon".

The Fukkan and Geisha in Shogun2 speak English because it's meant for the player to understand and take note. Generals, agents, and unit phrases in battle mode were in Japanese because your understanding of what they're saying had no influence in how the game would work out. All the Japanese spoken in the game did not detract to how well you played the game, only the degree of immersion. The same will happen with Rome2. The use of various linguistics will be added strategically and not saturated to the point where you had to take a language course to come close to appreciating the game.

The opposite would be Empire where most non-English factions did not speak English but otherwise had English text and advisor voices. Again the purpose was to allow the player to understand what needed to be understood. Most get the idea that one of their Indian army guys babbling something as you right-click somewhere in the campaign map that he's saying yes or he's saying no. And you're going to figure out which when he moves or not.

No one is arguing for this. Unit names, not voices.

I am one to like ancient unit names, but I'd rather leave that to mods, since it takes up valuable time and effort.

Naming an unit in proto-germanic is hard enough as it is.

Also, hopefully the member ranks will be able to be changed to roman or the like. As I'm more familiar to it.

~Jirisys ()

[BroskiDerpman]

In EB, there's also the english names in parentheses right next to the other name.

[boofhead]

In EB, there's also the english names in parentheses right next to the other name.

Which makes the descriptions even more long-winded, unwieldy, unnecessary, and ridiculous than having either one or the other.

EB can be like a history class

Surely you jest sir.