Archery

[CaptainIglo]

Ive noticed that all Archer Units have a constant 5 in missile attack which never changes, not with wep. upgrades nor experiences, and archer units do nearly no damage against heavy units like Mamluk tarbardariyyas or heavy cavalry. Everything with a total defense over 17 is pretty much safe, i mean i fired with Ardath bowmen into a Unit of Askari cavalry, after 3 round of firing took down only 2 of them. Also on any other heavy unit, they do almost no damage, not even the Crossbow units that should have a higher pircing capacity yet have a 5 as missile attack. Please fix this issue in 3.0, archery is useless in B.C.

[nein]

Foot archery is useless... horse archers on the other hand are very powerful. A stack of light horse archers can destroy just about anything. Foot archers have fewer arrows and cannot skirmish around the map like a mounted archer.

[zburanuki]

ok,here is another question about archery.i've noticed that the kharezmian shah's guard unit is kharas cataphract horse archer,also khwarezm can recruit the same unit as regular one.but why the guard have much more arrows to shoot than the regular unit? what's the difference (if any) between them?

as for the issue above,the only way to make your archers useful against heavy units is with flame arrows(i think you already know it though) and i think that crossbowmen do better job against heavy cavalry than heavy infantry.as for tabardariyya (along with the varagians) you have to fight them with 2 units simultaneously,either 2 melee units or 1 melee nad 1 missile.

[CaptainIglo]

ok,here is another question about archery.i've noticed that the kharezmian shah's guard unit is kharas cataphract horse archer,also khwarezm can recruit the same unit as regular one.but why the guard have much more arrows to shoot than the regular unit? what's the difference (if any) between them?

as for the issue above,the only way to make your archers useful against heavy units is with flame arrows(i think you already know it though) and i think that crossbowmen do better job against heavy cavalry than heavy infantry.as for tabardariyya (along with the varagians) you have to fight them with 2 units simultaneously,either 2 melee units or 1 melee nad 1 missile.

I wanted to denote the low attack which is a general 5, that dosnt rise with upgrates nor exp. (which in MW2TW original game it does) also to your point with flame arrows, the damage is still the same, you can fire with 112 archer units with flame arrows on 46 Ghurid heavy axemen unit and you will probably kill 4 or 5 untill you run out of arrows. 112 on 46, and only 4 die? the missile attack/ total defense balance is too uneven, im wanting the staff to take note and improve this in the upcoming upgrade.

[Mamertine]

Ive noticed that all Archer Units have a constant 5 in missile attack which never changes, not with wep. upgrades nor experiences, and archer units do nearly no damage against heavy units like Mamluk tarbardariyyas or heavy cavalry. Everything with a total defense over 17 is pretty much safe, i mean i fired with Ardath bowmen into a Unit of Askari cavalry, after 3 round of firing took down only 2 of them. Also on any other heavy unit, they do almost no damage, not even the Crossbow units that should have a higher pircing capacity yet have a 5 as missile attack. Please fix this issue in 3.0, archery is useless in B.C.

Archer attack rating is 5 across the board because the logic is that they all used similar bows and arrows, so it is hard to justify why one group of archers is 20-40% more powerful while using similar equipment. They differ in accuracy, though. The better archers hit their mark more often than not, which makes sense to me. You could argue that bows varied a little and there were different arrow heads for different uses, but it's hard to put a number on them. Some HAs do use CB (close bows) that are armor piercing to fill this void.

And archers were never really effective against heavily armored troops for the most part. That is what crossbows are for or gunpowder units. It's like this in vanilla and every mod I have ever played.

Archers are for fending off enemy HAs and killing/thinning light to no armored troops.

If you do not like this, you can always go into export_desc_unit and change them yourself. I did and changed the arrow count, 12 is too few imo.

[CaptainIglo]

Archer attack rating is 5 across the board because the logic is that they all used similar bows and arrows, so it is hard to justify why one group of archers is 20-40% more powerful while using similar equipment.

The crossbow used to pierce trough chain mail or plates if used sharpened heads, in the real game of MW2TW the attack is 11 varying depending on wep upgrades and exp, in BC its constant 5 not varying never, also mongol composite bows were more powerfull than the western longbow, thats a fact, what i want is a balancing, also allowing missile units to gain attack with upgrades and experinces, right now, for me, archer units are useless, you can field them as bait, nothing else, their damage output is practically none, therefor i never use them to save slots. You can try it byurself fielding archery against taqlahs, ghazi axemen, vishaps or other units with a total defense above 23.

[nein]

if you want effective archers just use light HA... they can still wreck anything despite not being particularly powerful

[CaptainIglo]

if you want effective archers just use light HA... they can still wreck anything despite not being particularly powerful

HA are the same, they have an attak of 5 despite using composite bows, i want mods just to make them historically accurate. I mean, crossbows are indeed armor piercing or composite bows, you cant put a general 5 of attack to those bows where they dont do any damage. Right now a crossbow has the same damage as a normal bow where in reallity crossbows were way more powerfull, same the composite bow used by the mongols and eastern people.

[k/t]

in the real game of MW2TW the attack is 11 varying depending on wep upgrades and exp

No, missile damage always stays the same. Only melee damage is affected by experience and weapon upgrades.

The total defense of a unit is irrelevant. Only the armour and shield values are used versus missiles.

The logic that all archers would have used similar bows and arrows is flawed. A levied hunter in India would not be using the same bow as a professional Mongol soldier. Also, a trained archer would be able to use a bow with a much higher draw weight than a peasant would, so he should have a higher attack number.

Flaming arrows should be removed.

Take a look at my submod for BC. So far only the EDU is available (and it's not finished), but what I've done so far addresses your issues.

[nein]

Captain HA have the same attack but they also have alot of arrows... it is also much easier to position them on high ground to increase their effectiveness due to the superior mobility.

[CaptainIglo]

No, missile damage always stays the same. Only melee damage is affected by experience and weapon upgrades.

The total defense of a unit is irrelevant. Only the armour and shield values are used versus missiles.

The logic that all archers would have used similar bows and arrows is flawed. A levied hunter in India would not be using the same bow as a professional Mongol soldier. Also, a trained archer would be able to use a bow with a much higher draw weight than a peasant would, so he should have a higher attack number.

Flaming arrows should be removed.

Take a look at my submod for BC. So far only the EDU is available (and it's not finished), but what I've done so far addresses your issues.

Nah, the flaming arrows are good, but thats exactly what i meant, you cant put an atack of 5 on all bows, bows are not similar one to another, they vary, and what goes to the HA issue, their attack is 5, the only good thing is that they have more arrows, and can move faster, but the damage is the same, u could shoot all arrows on a unit of Ghazi Axmen and you would barely kill 6 or 7 till u run off arrows, not to mention that they are completly useless against heavy cavalry.

[wudang_clown]

We appreciate all feedback, but please read more about impact of accuracy on effectiveness of missile units. It's not only damage that is important here.

Also, testing archers on heavily armoured units is quite pointless. Test them on lightly and medium armoured troops.

Also, a trained archer would be able to use a bow with a much higher draw weight than a peasant would, so he should have a higher attack number.

I think untrained archer is no archer at all, and peasants wouldn't know how to use a bow, because they didn't have enough time and need to practise.

[megalitho]

Totally noobish and offtopic question: Where there no hunters in medieval middle east? The prussians recruited prevalent hunters (german: Jäger) and foresters to fill up their professional army, because those guys knew how to use a firearm.

[brapollo]

The effects of archery in BC, regardless of the unique way they handle stats, works out. Armored troops are mostly immune from arrow assaults, unless it is the sustained by a constant barrage from horse archers. Lightly armored troops sustain heavier casualties from arrows. And better units kill more enemies with their arrows.

The main issue is the ammo amount. Foot archers are useless even on a city wall because they carry only 12 arrows. It's the main error of BC- entire classes of units, foot archers and heavy horse archers, are essentially useless.

[nein]

>u could shoot all arrows on a unit of Ghazi Axmen and you would barely kill 6 or 7 till u run off arrows, not to mention that they are completly useless against heavy cavalry

that's rubbish... are you playing a modified version? In vanilla BC archers can and will inflict heavy casualties over time. Especially if they are firing from high ground. Even elites get worn down... they are not invincible, if you are expecting archers that can wreck an enemy army in seconds I suggest you go with third age.

[CaptainIglo]

>u could shoot all arrows on a unit of Ghazi Axmen and you would barely kill 6 or 7 till u run off arrows, not to mention that they are completly useless against heavy cavalry

that's rubbish... are you playing a modified version? In vanilla BC archers can and will inflict heavy casualties over time. Especially if they are firing from high ground. Even elites get worn down... they are not invincible, if you are expecting archers that can wreck an enemy army in seconds I suggest you go with third age.

I play B.C not Vanilla. I dont want Archers to wreck enemy in 3 seconds, i want them to be historically accurate. I mean, Maghrebi Marines with their crossbows have an attack of 5 just like the Hindu longbow archers, when in reality crossbows were known to penetrate armors i think it is not accurate to place them on the same level as a hindu hunter bow. I hope you understand my issue. Same for the composite bows, they were way more powerfull than longbows or western bows yet all bows have the same attack in B.C. All i want is to fix that and assign every bow its real damage output. Nothing else. Same for the HA's most eastern HA's were composite yet you can see byzantine HA's with longbows using having the same attack as Turk/ Mongol horse archers.

[ash874]

i tried every infantry unit the koj has against ghurid heavy axemen
they all failed very miserably
but the latin crossbowmen almosy won
3 axemen were left in the end (on small unit size)
so obviously they can be used

the real problem is a problem with the game and not the mod
namely that archers on walls are not very effective
they should be shooting straight into the enemy insted of high up into the sky
a rampart should be designed to benefit the archers and not benefit the assaulting infantry

[wudang_clown]

Totally noobish and offtopic question: Where there no hunters in medieval middle east? The prussians recruited prevalent hunters (german: Jäger) and foresters to fill up their professional army, because those guys knew how to use a firearm.

Surely there were hunters in the Middle East, but who would recruit them if there were Turkish mercenaries available and bands of unemployed soldiery wandering about everywhere.

I've read a bit and found nothing about levying peasants and hunters. Citizen armies characteristic for early Abbasid period were replaced by mercenary armies already in Abbasid period, and that's quite long before BC begins.

Also, there were certain reasons against levying peasants. Firstly, under Seljuks there was serious division between military class and other classes, and secondly, peasants were mainly subjects to all kinds of extortions (legal or not, including confiscation of property and expropriation), so it was more likely for an amir to keep them alive and squeeze as much as possible of them than to let them be slain in any skirmish or battle.

yet all bows have the same attack in B.C.

As I've said, read more about accuracy in M2TW and its impact on effectiveness of missile troops. Damage value is not the only important here, so referring to it as the only relevant factor is incorrect.

All i want is to fix that and assign every bow its real damage output.

That's great, and we are open for suggestions on how to set everything so it would simulate real archery.

[nein]

I played a sindh campaign today, the turk light horse archer mercs were devastating. I bottled up the ghorids on that bridge north east of kabul and the archers won the battle every time... the melee units were used to pin the enemy in place but nothing more. The archers did the killing

I dislike that foot archers have so few arrows but to say that archer units are useless in bc is just plain wrong. If you use them in the right situation they will win the battle for you. A stack of light horse archers will destroy pretty much anything... unless you make a ridicolous stack of elite infantry or heavy cavalry. Most armies are padded out with levies as it should be, elites are a rarity.

The only suggestion I can give to improve archery in this mod is to give foot archers alot more arrows... similar to light HA. You recruit an archer unit to shoot people, not run out of arrows in minutes. I can understand if it is a hybrid unit with good armor but most bottom tier foot archers have so few arrows. Cavalry archers get alot less arrows depending on their status... elites recieve a tiny amount, medium units recieve a moderate amount and light HA get a massive amount. I think you should also give bottom tier foot archers a massive amount as well, to equalize with the light HA.

[Naja]

Are you kidding? Composite bows had crazy armor penetration. The Eastern Romans equipped both their foot archers and horse archers with the same bow. This was a stark contrast with other neighboring civilizations which lacked the regimented military regime to enforce continuous training (a necessity for maintaining an archery corps, especially with horse archery), and therefore they just used wooden bows.

Source: The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire, Edward Luttwak

Archers across different factions should have different damage, which can be ascribed to composite bow vs. non-composite bow usage, training (elite units drill consistently and therefore have more drawing power, vs. a levy unit handed a piddly wooden bow), and equipment. Or at the very least, units with composite bows should have the Armor Piercing attribute. You can make them more expensive and have costlier upkeep to reflect this difference.