Do you want agents to work different this time?

[Lockcaps]

So James Russel mentioned that they are planning on changing agents around abit, and i kinda agree with him. I feel like the agents are just nothing special anymore - they're just annoying and sometimes overpowered "micro-management hogs". Just lost your maxranked general to a rank-1 assasin because he got lucky? Too bad. Also the levelup system is...i dunno. I don't like it that much compared to traits in previous games. It would be nice if we had alot of options to choose from, but currently my "build" on agents are almost always exactly the same. Also the massive number of agents that are available is sooo annoying lategame. No, i don't want them to "dumb the game down" but this isn't fun at all.

I'd like to have an idea, or a suggestion to how they could work instead but honestly i can't think of anything. Perhaps they could be passive characters that influenced the area around them, causing interesting events or something(you plant an assasin/spy into enemy territory, he disappears and you will no longer be able to command him, but sometimes that enemy will get false information such as incoming armies that are not even there, warning about their allies betraying them when they aren't, etc) but that would almost remove them for the game.

[fumle]

I did also like m2tw (and rome's) trait system more, gave a better rpg feeling, but still purely optional. I could talk for ages about this, but lets see if i can come up with a suggestion to "different" agent mechanics:
- Hmm... we could have a system where you simply hire a "spymaster", instead of 5+ spies. If you want to put a spy into Carthage you simply click on something we can call the "spy" tab (similar to diplomacy tab in shogun II), you find carthage and say you want to put a spy in there, this will ofcourse cost you some gold, the spys chance of succes will depend on the spymasters skills and also other factors (its probaly easier to infiltrate a faction fo the same culture as your own etc.). You will never see the spy on the map, but next turn you get a event that tells about the agents succes (perhaps there could even be event chains?).
There should ofcourse be alot of options under the "spy" tab, examples: spying on economy of a faction, spying on the military, attempt to get full information of X city in the target faction, attempt to infiltrate X city in the target faction to open the gates...
There could be other tabs and "masters" (or they could be included in one), like assassin/sabotage, counciller/diplomat (a mission here could be to secretly make the target faction unpopular with another, to start a war between your enemies!). Im can think of quite a few examples, but no need to tire you guys with that, i think you get the idea.

Allrigth, what do we get from this idea? the obvious thing we get is removal of the "horde" of agents OP complained a bit about, but do we lose flavour? or options?, no i don't think so, lets imagine the old trait system is back, you will need to check your generals/vassals/whatever is this man a cunning bastard? if so then he makes a good spymaster...wait a sec... he ain't very loyal!. Ofcourse there could be made some sort of button that automatical finds a good candidate (but with the old trait system its probaly going to be hard to find the best candidate), thus if you don't care about looking trough all your generals traits you can still easly get a decent spymaster who won't easly let other spies into your empire. Yet a dedicated roelplayer can still enyoy himself finding the man he thinks deserve the position. (notice the important part here, is that a good general won't necessary be a very good spymaster, unlike in shogun II....who had a very boring "system" with ministres).

hmm...i just thought about a easy way to describe my system in case anyone got lost^^: from m2tw to etw the diplomat agent was replaced with a diplomacy tab, my suggestion is to get something similar to replace the other agents, but also make your factions effectivness in each field dependent on some kind of agent (or general, can't decide for myself), that don't go around doing all the stuff himself but simpyl sends out guys who do it for him.

fell free to come with critic and ad hoc ideas.

/Fumle

[daelin4]

Well the way Shogun2's agent missions work, you can't just send a 1-star ninja to assassinate a 6-star general, since the ninja would have zero bonuses to skills and the general likely has security bonuses. The option would be greyed out and the game says your odds are too low.

And even if that's not the case and you could very well send in nub ninja to take out a pro general, I'd expect the odds to be low and failure to likely result in death to the ninja, and success in just incapacitating.

Of course a more complex and larger traits system could help with this.

[Okuto]

I know what I don't want.......

Three agents who are able to assassinate.......gosh I hated Fots agents......

There should only be one who assassinates.......not three.....

I cannot tell you how many times some 1 star nobody killed my faction heir out of nothing.....

Ninjas...ok easy cake

Foreign Vets? WTF

Mesuke too?!

I can only fed off so many agents.....



A just want Rome's agents to be steamlined.....no jack of all trades....that pissed me off in Fots

[Erwin Rommel]

Blame that dude during pre-FOTS that made a case for agents making duels around the campaign map, confronting generals and other agents. I guess CA took that idea or maybe they said...

"Hmmm ishin shishi......hitokiri.........IDEA!"

Dont know though why they had vets being able to disable other agents and campaign map infrastructures.

Mesuke too?!

Huh? I thought they bribed them, they are like Ishi Shishi/Shinsengumi only the latter not only bribes, supress, but instills melee bonus unlike the metsuke who goes for more koku in your settlements.

[Okuto]

Huh? I thought they bribed them, they are like Ishi Shishi/Shinsengumi only the latter not only bribes, supress, but instills melee bonus unlike the metsuke who goes for more koku in your settlements.

I just chuck them into the metsuke as Imperial/shogun get separate entries....too lazy to write their names down

Shogun agents were indeed too powerful in my opinion. It was quite amusing to win a campaign relying almost entirely on agents but this is not the way I think of total war. Battles should be what the decides the fate of empires. Of course agents can be funny, but they should be nerferd. I liked the way they were in Medieval 2 for instance, they were specialized agents that could do specific tasks. Assassins assassinated, spied spied and well that's all that is really needed, you could have an agent inciting revolts like the priest but in a roman style and that's all that is really needed for me.

I actually liked that...gave you something to do during peace time......

also loved the exp trees

I just want them to all be specialists.....I do not want Fots style agents.....

Assassins assassinate and sabotage

Spies....well they spy, sabotage and spread unrest

no more need for diplomats(happy dance)


I do want exp trees again though, I liked that feature, actually made me care about my agents....oh and generals....Fots esp made me have a new appreciation for them

[ngr]

I like the idea of having list of regions where you could just set parameters for espionage, religion, etc. and set some specific tasks: for example, assasinate character X or convert character Y. There could be agents whom you can hire and assign to certain region to make all that job or just to make it better.

And I like the idea of tasks that could be applied to whole faction, like setting your rivals at war with each other by giving them false information. Another example: in Medieval game you could convert faction to your religion.

[sobchack]

Shogun agents were incredibly overpowered, especially when used by human player in the multiplayer campaign who knew how to exploit this

[myself]

Shogun agents were indeed too powerful in my opinion. It was quite amusing to win a campaign relying almost entirely on agents but this is not the way I think of total war. Battles should be what the decides the fate of empires. Of course agents can be funny, but they should be nerferd. I liked the way they were in Medieval 2 for instance, they were specialized agents that could do specific tasks. Assassins assassinated, spied spied and well that's all that is really needed, you could have an agent inciting revolts like the priest but in a roman style and that's all that is really needed for me.

[JOZI]

before i vote...what do you mean by different....like there are major pro's and con's to the shogun 2 agents and saying they were all bad or all good doesn't make much sense to me

[daelin4]

The thing with Shogun2 agents was that they often replaced rather than complemented armies. A missionary can incite empty provinces to spawn giant rebel armies. Ninja can subvert AI armies so they can't move so you can pick them off or sieze their provinces. In other words you can play a large part of the campaign with agents rather than conventional armies. It was more like Special Forces: Total War.

Agents need to be a healthy balance of replacing armies and complementing them. I would say subversion should have reduced movement rather than paralyzing them, for example.

[Erwin Rommel]

They make great complements actually when inserted to army stacks. I actually use them more as such than risk losing them and spend koku.

Metsuke keeps my disloyal generals in check, Shinsengumi instills melee bonus, ninjas have movement bonus, monks have morale bonus, foreign vets have accuracy bonus for guns. And I have yet to describe how they do wonders for my provinces.

[Lorddweeb]

I feel like there should be ways of dispatching most agents other than having to send another agent to assasinate or convert them. For example, say the "incite revolt" guy in rome 2 is some sort of priest equivalent. If he is in your province being super obnoxious, you should just be able to order him executed - no sending someone to do it, just click on him and execute. The downside to this would be that it would hurt your relations with all factions that followed this religion and if the province he was executed in was primarily of that religion, it would even be counter-productive.

This would lead to interesting scenarios. For example, somebody keeps sending priests from religion Y to your provinces. But none of your friendly factions belong to religion Y, so you just keep executing them without any worries. However, you then take over a province in which 90% of the population follows religion Y. You send in your priests to do some converting but the enemy sends in a bunch of his own. You can't execute these guys because doing so would automatically provoke a huge revolt in the province you are trying to convert.

Finally, when you run into these situations and need to kill somebody without the penalties that the "just arrest and execute this ass" button provokes, THAT is when you would send in a assassin to silently get rid of him. (Assassins would obviously not be an agent that you can just execute whenever you want)

Anyway, its a rough idea to allow you to easily get rid of agent spam from factions you don't care for in the first place, while still allowing agents to be useful in other situations.

[Rhaegar1]

I hope there's only one kind of agent. By using that agent for different tasks he develops skills in doing these tasks (assasination / sabotage / spying), or by using some development tree besides that he should be represented on the campaign map by a large dude with bearskin and humongous spiked club. After all, we all know that that is the weapon of choice for an assasin. Diplomats, merchants, princesses, monks, gentlemans and who knows what else are all annoying distractions from what I want to do on the campaing map.

[spanish_emperor]

I think agents should be the following:

Spy/Assassin: they engage in espionage in either settlements or armies. They can also assassinate agents or characters. They can specialize like in Total War Shogun 2.

Ambassador: they can gain trade rights with a certain settlement/province. They can develop a friendship between certain governors by providing gifts. This makes them more likely to support you in a civil war or in other political areas. They can start a revolution or rebellion in support of an oligarchy or monarchy. They can discover secret alliances or pacts if sent to the enemy capital.

Secret Police: decrease unrest and uncover enemy agents engaging in espionage and technology theft but also prevent assassinations. They can assassinate enemy agents or put on trial corrupt characters.

Priest: Increases religious conversion in the province. Can increase or decrease the moral of an army with a button named “Interpret omens” whose effectiveness depends on his piety skill. The priest can also increase the happiness in a province for one turn by making sacrifices to the gods.

Apostolic Fathers: spread conversion of Christianity.

Academic: Scientists and Philosophers who have become renown in your civilization. They can assist in developing technology or can be sent to other civilizations and steal their technological advancements under the guise of sharing knowledge and assisting their technological advancements. If discovered can have severe diplomatic repercussions; can be executed or held ransom. Building schools allow their recruitment.

[Bringer Of Storms]

^^^Perfect

[eXistenZ]

Well, on the one hand i liked shogun 2 limited number of agents, so you dont get 30 of one kind walking around like in medievall 2

On the other hand, its fairly stupid that some agent options dont work anymore cause you already have the maximum of them

[Wasted Penguin]

I'd like to see system what Spanish talked about. Best system idea around.

[Lockcaps]

Also maybe Praetorians could be a unique Roman agent, that significantly reduced unrest because they could be sent to "take care of" your political enemies in Rome IF you were in control of them - maybe it could work abit like the Papal election in Med2, where you vote for the Prefect of the praetorians. If the prefect supports you, he'll do what you command him to do.

At the same time they should be a combat unit similar to Samurai Retainers in Shogun2 but that's another topic.

[MrBoBo1]

I thought the agents in Shogun 2 where alot better than those of Napoleon and Empire.