Reforms

[Mamertine]

Hello EB team,

Just was curious about the reforms. One thing I loved about EBI were the reforms. All I read was that the Roman reforms were planned. Will you include Cataphract, Persian (awesome btw), Bondsman, etc.?

Will you be planning any more in the coming patches? Just curious.

Also, I was wondering if you were going to have any unique mercenaries and could give us a teaser perhaps. One in particular would be the Mamertines (obviously), since you could argue they helped start the Punic Wars. I like unique mercs for obvious reasons, they're cool, useful, and add to a unique army (like Sardinian infantry or Rhodian slingers).

TL: DR

Reforms and unique mercs?

Thanks,
Mamertine

[hamjam]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

[TLG]

I'd also really like to hear a bit more on the reforms you've got planned. They're one of the most interesting aspects of the game to me and I know you'll have something special waiting for us

[BroskiDerpman]

This is my favorite reform for the Romani: unlocking uber phalangites from Greece that are invincible to missile weapons and have maxed out stats and can move their pikes around 360 degrees, also they can move faster than cavalry. Then there's the bunny hopping cavalry that shoots out lazorz and insta kills a whole unit.


Now talking about reforms....I see what you did there......

[hamjam]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

[hamjam]

Sorry, double post.

[Auxor]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

That would be pretty damn interesting, EB/TW is after all alternate history after the start date, unified poleis in southern Greece as a government reform would be brilliant. All Greek regions could allow access to a new government type called for example "United Hellene City", a hypothetical move towards a single nation state with a more unified unit roster and maybe a change in faction symbol.

[joey6131986]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

I always thought the same thing, and I agree completely. Although I have no problem with simply playing as the Koinon Hellenon, this would be a drastic role-playing improvement in my opinion.

[Mamertine]

I really like the idea of the KH reforms. Perhaps it could be done by forming the Aetolian League or another one. I know that no one league encompassed all of Hellas, but its a possibility. Maybe have a few bonuses and expanded recruiting/new units, idk.

I would also like to see a Makedonian reform by conquering the current diodochi kingdoms and perhaps vice versa. After all, they all were trying to recreate Alexander's empire. What this would entail I'm not sure and would love to others' 2 cents on this.

Any other suggestions out there? Like a Roman armor reform from the Dacian wars. This would be similar in style to AS cataphract reforms.

Agreed with the above comment that reforms made this already great mod stand high above the others. Really like where this thread is going.

[BroskiDerpman]

I really like the idea of the KH reforms. Perhaps it could be done by forming the Aetolian League or another one. I know that no one league encompassed all of Hellas, but its a possibility. Maybe have a few bonuses and expanded recruiting/new units, idk.

I would also like to see a Makedonian reform by conquering the current diodochi kingdoms and perhaps vice versa. After all, they all were trying to recreate Alexander's empire. What this would entail I'm not sure and would love to others' 2 cents on this.

Any other suggestions out there? Like a Roman armor reform from the Dacian wars. This would be similar in style to AS cataphract reforms.

Agreed with the above comment that reforms made this already great mod stand high above the others. Really like where this thread is going.

The Dacian Wars is out of EB's time frame, maybe some LS Blasphemer decides that he wants 100% LS equipped purty legionaries armed with Rome bias as a submod.

Alright, enough of me being off topic, I want the KH to be better represented not just as a 100% unified faction.

[Mamertine]

Well obviously the EB timeframe does not go into when the Dacian wars actually occured, BroskiDerpman. But you could argue that the results would be similar if the Romans invaded Dacia a couple hundred years prior to reality. Ya know, that concept of rewriting history? Perhaps you think every event in EBII should be written in stone no matter what.

Anyways I was just throwing out things off the top of my head, I was not suggesting EB include LS, I don't want that.

So easy to condemn, so hard to create. Anything positive you would like to contribe?

[The Kybrothilian]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

Well if this is implemented, I hope the reform isn't easy to achieve, causing rebellion from pretty much most of the other city-states. Although, rebellions from other city-states will be there in any case, if there is no common foe to fight.

[hamjam]

Well if this is implemented, I hope the reform isn't easy to achieve, causing rebellion from pretty much most of the other city-states. Although, rebellions from other city-states will be there in any case, if there is no common foe to fight.

I agree that it should not be easy. The Ha ones are not easy (at least not in my opinion). There should definitely be a lot of requirements: the holding of several cities, certain buildings being built, perhaps having family members of certain ethnicities, having a certain diplomatic state with certain factions, family members with certain attributes and accomplishments -- the whole gamut.

I remember reading somewhere that the team had some 'surprises' in store for the Koinon Hellenon. Presuming (maybe wrongly) that the initial starting position will still be the Chremonidian League then the biggest obstacle to a unified Greek 'empire' is that one or other of the starting, independent, city states/kingdoms/poleis must take on de facto leadership of the Koinon - and that is going to lead to resentment and rebellion by the other aspects of that loosely affiliated league. My own thinking on this would be that there will be some sort of mechanism where a choice will have to be made as to which aspect of the league the player will take on as their faction. So, one might choose to operate primarily as Sparta, or as Athens, perhaps Rhodes or even maybe relocating the centre of the league and operating as the Achaean league. This would fit in with what looks (to me) like the EB2 team emphasising the role playing possibilities within the game.

I agree with you that I kind of think that the EB2 team already has something up their sleeve in this regard, and probably something that will be so elegantly implemented that it will blow all of our ideas out of the water. I have been waiting in anticipation for the KH faction preview almost as much as I have for the first beta (give the EB2 team credit, they make one hell of a preview).

However, I disagree with you on one point. I don't think the reform should be a transition from a loose alliance of city states to hegemony for one city state -- these are the Greeks, we know that would not have worked as a basis for empire. Instead it should be the solidification from loose alliance to coherent confederation -- similar to the long and halting process the american colonies had to go through to create the United States after they gained independence from the British. First they were just militarily allied, then they had the very loose Articles of Confederation once the British were gone (in which each state had their own militia, laws and money -- and would even fight each other for territory), then, when that was too loose, they created the current Federal Constitution that created the unified currency, trade policy and military structure.

[Cassibellane]

I agree with you that I kind of think that the EB2 team already has something up their sleeve in this regard, and probably something that will be so elegantly implemented that it will blow all of our ideas out of the water. I have been waiting in anticipation for the KH faction preview almost as much as I have for the first beta (give the EB2 team credit, they make one hell of a preview).

Oh yes they do ( make one hell of a preview, that is).

However, I disagree with you on one point. I don't think the reform should be a transition from a loose alliance of city states to hegemony for one city state -- these are the Greeks, we know that would not have worked as a basis for empire. Instead it should be the solidification from loose alliance to coherent confederation -- similar to the long and halting process the american colonies had to go through to create the United States after they gained independence from the British. First they were just militarily allied, then they had the very loose Articles of Confederation once the British were gone (in which each state had their own militia, laws and money -- and would even fight each other for territory), then, when that was too loose, they created the current Federal Constitution that created the unified currency, trade policy and military structure.

My post wasn't as full as it could have been. I agree that it would not have become a centralised empire. What I was saying is that, at some point, if enough of Greece is brought into the fold then the old animosities (esp. between Sparta and Athens) would be raised to the fore again, and that - at that point - a choice to follow one path or another would come about. When I said de facto leadership I meant in terms of , eventually, something like what the Delian League would have been, with (in that case) Athens as clear leaders. I think the gameplay will advance through looser affiliations coalescing into a more tightly formed confederacy - much as you described.

I was talking more in terms of the (pretty much) inevitable conflict between Athens and Sparta as to which one of those old enemies would feel the other was gaining unwarranted influence.

[hamjam]

My post wasn't as full as it could have been. I agree that it would not have become a centralised empire. What I was saying is that, at some point, if enough of Greece is brought into the fold then the old animosities (esp. between Sparta and Athens) would be raised to the fore again, and that - at that point - a choice to follow one path or another would come about. When I said de facto leadership I meant in terms of , eventually, something like what the Delian League would have been, with (in that case) Athens as clear leaders. I think the gameplay will advance through looser affiliations coalescing into a more tightly formed confederacy - much as you described.

I was talking more in terms of the (pretty much) inevitable conflict between Athens and Sparta as to which one of those old enemies would feel the other was gaining unwarranted influence.

Ahhh. Now I understand you...and now I totally agree with you. Yeah, just like America's civil war was caused as the North took greater control over the Union, inevitable one city state in the Koinon would get unequal influence as the confederation matured and gained territory outside itself, and this would lead to a Greek civil war.

Perhaps a script could exist to where, once you have accomplished all of your reform requirements and the reform takes place that, whatever members of the Koinon that are core provinces that are also not your capital would immediately revolt and go Rebel Faction to where you would have to reconquer them and integrate them into the union. That way the player could pick what main city state he wants to back in the inevitable civil war by locating his capital in that city. So, if you want Athens to be the senior partner then you will have to deal with reconquering Sparta, Korinthos and Rhodes.

[Cassibellane]

The reform I would most like to see is a complex Hayasdan style reform for KH that would allow them to go from a group of city states fighting together for mutual independence to an actual empire. I love playing as KH, but it bothers me in that a collection of city states would never have been able to create an empire and expand in the way they will when you play as them.

It would be great if there was some process where you had to unlock the ability to build a coherent government structure in southern Greece in order to really have the resources to expand beyond Hellas. I have thoughts on this, but I am going to be benevolent and not bore anyone with them now.

I remember reading somewhere that the team had some 'surprises' in store for the Koinon Hellenon. Presuming (maybe wrongly) that the initial starting position will still be the Chremonidian League then the biggest obstacle to a unified Greek 'empire' is that one or other of the starting, independent, city states/kingdoms/poleis must take on de facto leadership of the Koinon - and that is going to lead to resentment and rebellion by the other aspects of that loosely affiliated league. My own thinking on this would be that there will be some sort of mechanism where a choice will have to be made as to which aspect of the league the player will take on as their faction. So, one might choose to operate primarily as Sparta, or as Athens, perhaps Rhodes or even maybe relocating the centre of the league and operating as the Achaean league. This would fit in with what looks (to me) like the EB2 team emphasising the role playing possibilities within the game.

Well if this is implemented, I hope the reform isn't easy to achieve, causing rebellion from pretty much most of the other city-states. Although, rebellions from other city-states will be there in any case, if there is no common foe to fight.

Yes, that is what I'm thinking. That playing as the Koinon will almost inevitably lead to a break up of any built up 'empire' because of the dynamics of the internal structure, and that this will be where the player makes choices as to the aspect of the Koinon that they choose to follow.

[Mamertine]

Almost forgot. What about a Phoenician reform for Carthage?

Maybe take back the Levant and make Tyre your capital to start it off. It should give massive trading bonuses. Idk, just spit balling.

[BroskiDerpman]

I also think that they should get a reform with stone roads (Same as above posts) as it makes sense.

[TLG]

I love the idea people are putting forward for the KH If the team has in there own way made them act more like a League than a single faction it would be excellent fun from a gameplay perspective. Prehaps you could use a script or something with the dimplomacy to allow you to persuade other cities to join rather than just invading them (I have no idea what it's possible to do)

[BroskiDerpman]

I wonder how do we make the KH act like a league though?