reflections on seen stuff so far

[Giurza]

so my dear bretheren of might, dividing and conquering,
after seeing first movies, screenes and 3d units, what you say? the first agitation wave should already have been subsided, so now we could talk it over in nice and calm environment.
I was also carried away with these movies and screens, but after a while I started to notice some things that will make quite big probs.
for ex: infantry is moving to damn fast for my reckoning of Medieval armour... I guess it should be possible to sprint last few yards, but not so much we've seen in this last movie...
and also this movie where they show the whole unit of armoured knights go down after some inexplicable nuclear explosion...

so what I propose is to disregard all the good things in this thread and tackle the bugs and baddies we saw, because there is no little thingie that will not turn into a big biggie when you start playing

[italiano]

for ex: infantry is moving to damn fast for my reckoning of Medieval armour...

Easily modded.

and also this movie where they show the whole unit of armoured knights go down after some inexplicable nuclear explosion...

Easily modded out.

These aren't things that worry me. The eye candy is looking great but it's the AI that we should be worrying about. Battles have been greatly improved by the community but it'd obviously be nice if CA has pushed it further. Diplomacy and invasion intelligence is probally the biggest concern. Diplomacy needs improving everywhere, and with invasion AI I'm talking about army placement (ie bring stacks to the front before attacking, group stacks together), recognizing the strength of enemy nation and their weaknesses (ie don't attack stronger foe unless they are distracted) and creating things like diversionary attacks.

[Handsome Huss]

Even more simplified battle interface... A bad thing.

I couldnt get a really good look there, but it seems like the RTS battle portion of the game is getting dumbed down even more, from R:TW, which was dumbed down already from M:TW. I know it looks pretty, but...graphics, at least for me, dont make the game. I'm afraid that, like most games seem to be doing these days, M:TW 2 gets simplified to appeal to a broader audience..thus making the game shallow and not as in-depth as we (the hardcore Total War-ites) have come to expect.

[Goliath]

and also this movie where they show the whole unit of armoured knights go down after some inexplicable nuclear explosion...

They were taken down by a huge cannon.
You can tell when a cannon fires and some people die that they were killed by a cannon.

[Valerius Maximus]

i'm still looking forward to this game. I believe/hope that CA will improve on the weaknesses from RTW even if it's only slightly. Obviously it's not gonna be all that CA says it's going to be, but it won't be as bad as some people are already making it out to be...

[Giurza]

i'm still looking forward to this game. I believe/hope that CA will improve on the weaknesses from RTW even if it's only slightly. Obviously it's not gonna be all that CA says it's going to be, but it won't be as bad as some people are already making it out to be...

well... you see, we (those sceptic people) have some bad experience from earlier games. RTW<>MTW for ex, the AI gets down, enemy is dumb, battles goes for most of the time between "village garrison" sized forces... and that is not what we expect to see. well I am too very eager to see this new product of CA, but I have no hopes now, after so many dissapointments
and about that big cannon... well I have no idea how you could hit a HORSE unit, not to mention all others, with that big "bandura", there is one which is very like to that one, and even bigger, you have it in St Petersburg. and there is one chance in a million to hit anything but wall with it

[Lusted]

You do realise the big explosion in the video was probably done specially for the video to make it look more impressive. As for your comment about units moving too fast for medieval armour. Armour was designed to be flexible and allow mobility, especially plate armour. A full suit of plate armour weighs around 25kg, much less than the 60kgs modern soldiers carry on their backs and they still run around.

[Giurza]

now, Lusted, please do not feel offended, but Medieval full plate armour weights 50-60 kg, that's one, and I am an officer, I had 50/60kg on me, and I can tell you that you DO NOT run with that stuff, believe me.
just don't get angry, I felt like saying this, 'cos I have that stuff on me occasionally

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Ok may be its me that I am picky when expecting a good work from CA ...... they aren't modders so they have to make things superior in quality than rushed works ....

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/170/13fz2.jpg

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/2480/25gn.jpg

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/4337/37cr2.jpg

and also Knights are on huge horses , they are wayy too big .....

[Giurza]

oh well... I would rather sacrifice all that stuff and much more, I would even continue to play with clone armies, JUST GIMME GOOD AI AND HISTORICAL ACCURACY
for ex, I enjoyed RTW TR mod so much more that RTW... it was so unbelievable cool that it took years and years to convert certain province so it could produce real roman units... it adds so much depth into the game... I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why the h**ll can't CA do the same thing...
p.s. those horses, well they tend to be little bit overgrown, though even they were huge... every knight had at least two horses - one to travel with (an ordinary jump and ride version :original: ) and second one to do battle, and the latter was HUGE, they were really big, in order to carry the weight of knight + his armour.
but you are right they are at least a bit too big

P.S.

Medieval plate armour did not weigh 50-60 kg.

sorry to dissapoint you Lusted, but regardless what wicipedia has to say about that stuff, I was at the Lithuanian war museum and actually had full plate armour on me, and even without bracers and greeves and boots it was up to 30 kg (with helm though)

[Frost, colonel]

now, Lusted, please do not feel offended, but Medieval full plate armour weights 50-60 kg, that's one, and I am an officer, I had 50/60kg on me, and I can tell you that you DO NOT run with that stuff, believe me.
just don't get angry, I felt like saying this, 'cos I have that stuff on me occasionally

The question of movement/agility in armour was raised in a tv documentry, so they set up a half dozen young men in full armour plate doing an assault course. It was found that they could manage quite well and the wearers were pleasantly surprised at the mobility the armour afforded them, and yes they could run. One aspect to take into account is that the weight is fairly evenly spread over the entire body.
I would of thought that the average soldier back then was reasonably fit and strong, ie you had to march to battle etc, some couch potatoes nowadays couldn't even cope with the march, never mind fighting for hours(battle of Towton, war of the roses)

I talked to the re-inacters of the War of the Roses and they moved well without any real incumberance!

[Lusted]

Medieval plate armour did not weigh 50-60 kg.

While it looks heavy, a full plate armour set could be as light as only 20 kg (45 pounds) if well made of tempered steel. This is less than the weight of modern combat gear of an infantry soldier, and the weight is better distributed. The weight was so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his saddle. Modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

[Lusted]

Well yes 20kg is the minimum, but i dooubt any weighed 50-60kg. If modern reenactors have made replica armour and been able to run in it, im sure medival soldiers could do so to.

[Giurza]

well, anyways, regardless of what was that real weight, (though late medieval armour was so heavy that the knight had been unable to haul himself up on the horse and had to be winched up, well it is true to those who had a ride, but foot soldiers had much to wear on them too) so as I say, regardless of real weght (be it 30-40kg if we have to compromise) it would still be impossible to run at such speed, not to say about maintaining this speed for more than 2-3 min... and that's max
p.s.
that one I had on me if fully comleted with mesh underwear, its weight was just over 50 kg
+ sword (and that would not be that kind of flexy thingie William Wallace had in Braveheart)
+ shield
+ all the small stuff every knight just has to have when goin out for some "kill some peasants, rape some girls" picnick (such as daggers etc)

[Lusted]

The fact that Knights had to be winched onto their horses is a common myth. not even knights in the heavy jousting armour were winched onto their horses. If the guys could somersault, run and swim in full plate armour, they could sure as hell get onto a horse. The myth originates from the book: Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and has no historical basis.

[Giurza]

The fact that Knights had to be winched onto their horses is a common myth. not even knights in the heavy jousting armour were winched onto their horses. If the guys could somersault, run and swim in full plate armour, they could sure as hell get onto a horse. The myth originates from the book: Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and has no historical basis.

well I know that book, but still I know that you should be some god damn orc to jump on the horse with that stuff, and btw where did you get that knights COULD SWIM WITH FULL PLATE ARMOUR???? don't be insulted but that's crap, in the same battle over Stirling bridge hundreds of Englishmen drowned drag by their armour, and that was not a late medieval armour...

[Lusted]

Erm, ive been to modern reenactment society displays where people in FULL PLATE armour have swum across small rivers, and got onto horses unaided. And yes, they were wearing proper armour. I never said they jumped onto the horses, i just said they could get on them without a winch.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

COULD SWIM WITH FULL PLATE ARMOUR

???

[Giurza]

damn... that must have been light alloy armour with high tech bracers and super light boots... I'm just kidinn, don't get angry Lusted , but still I am 100 % sure it is impossible to swim with fullplate armour. and nothing can convince me otherwise.
I can go for no winch concept, but swiming in armour... oh no I'm not that much a believer... :hmmm:
p.s.
btw it was because of the heavy armour that teutonic order had so much success in conquering Lithuania. Durpes musis for ex, it was armour that draged knights into the mud and swamps

[Barbarian-Bob]

As I suspected before and even more now that the pictures are up, you are talking about different armour. Plate armour, yes, but quality, style, weight and just about everything else that can be different. It's not like everyone went around with the same armour! So maybe both of you are right.

Besides, remember how Frederick Barbarossa died? :hmmm: