Ex-Israeli Soldier Jailed for shooting at civilians

[Pontifex Maximus]

Re-post from this thread which was closed for insufficient bases of discussion. I don't have any political motivations for posting this, just wanted to give the topic a chance to survive by posting an acceptable OP for everyone who wanted to discuss it.

Here is the story

Basis for discussion:

It would appear the the soldier's sentence is a bit lenient for such a crime, but was the soldier justified in the shooting, were there mitigating factors? The article seems hyperbolic in areas, but did the soldier have a legitimate reason for using deadly force against the victims? If, however, we take the article at face value, this sort of heinous crime would require a stricter punishment, and possibly adds to Israel's sketchy history of crimes against Palestinians. Discuss.

[s.rwitt]

but was the soldier justified in the shooting, were there mitigating factors?

Not that I can see.

[DimeBagHo]

You might want to fix the thread title. He wasn't jailed for murder.

I expect the problem was that the prosecution couldn't prove murder because they couldn't show that he intended to kill the civilians, and couldn't prove manslaughter because they couldn't prove that he fired the fatal shots. All they could prove was that he fired his weapon, and that he did not have permission to do so. Hence the charge of firing without permission and the relatively light penalty.

[sumskilz]

I expect the problem was that the prosecution couldn't prove murder because they couldn't show that he intended to kill the civilians, and couldn't prove manslaughter because they couldn't prove that he fired the fatal shots. All they could prove was that he fired his weapon, and that he did not have permission to do so. Hence the charge of firing without permission and the relatively light penalty.

Yeah, that seems about right based on what Haaretz reported.

At the time, IDF forces received warnings that an armed fighter hiding among fleeing women might try to shoot at soldiers. According to the evidence in the case, Staff Sgt. S' deliberately shot at a figure among the group of civilians, in contradiction to orders.

S' has long since completed his army service. His attorneys claimed that there was no proven connection between his shooting and the death of the two women, and that the two events occurred in different times. They further argued that indicting a soldier for the killing of an anonymous victim, when no body was found, is questionable, and that many other soldiers also opened fire in the said event.

An IDF spokesperson verified the details this morning, and added that, following an arbitration process in the case and "after examining all the evidence and circumstances, and following the military court's recommendation, both sides reached a plea bargain that would see the indictment corrected to illegal use of weapons."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-soldier-sentenced-to-45-days-for-death-of-mother-daughter-in-gaza-war.premium-1.457649

[Pontifex Maximus]

You might want to fix the thread title. He wasn't jailed for murder.
.

Shooting civilians then? I don't really care too much about the news story, don't feel strongly either way. I just wanted to allow the topic to survive even though you had to close the last one. Maybe merge the threads?

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Could they not have taken the bullets from the body's and matched them to his gun?Forensic testing can be very accurate.
If he did shoot 2 innocent civilians then why?

[DimeBagHo]

Could they not have taken the bullets from the body's and matched them to his gun?Forensic testing can be very accurate.

It can be if you have any physical evidence to test. But there was no physical evidence in this case. No bodies. No bullets. So you can see why proving manslaughter would have been difficult.

[sumskilz]

Military prosecutors then downgraded the charges after major discrepancies were found in the case against the soldier.

The defendant’s lawyer proved that the shooting and the killing of the two women happened at different times.

Additionally, the prosecution said no bodies had been presented to the court to determine the women’s cause of death, and said that there many soldiers shooting in the area at the time.

Finally, there were significant discrepancies between the Palestinian claims in the case and the IDF’s charges.

The charges initially leveled against the soldier, known as “S.,” were the most serious accusations against an Israeli soldier from Cast Lead, and the case appeared in the UN-commissioned Goldstone Report.

On January 4, 2009, Palestinian mother and daughter, Majda and Raya Abu Hajaj, were said to be part of a group of civilians waving a white sheet in order to show that they did not present a threat and were seeking evacuation from their home near Gaza City due to the nearby fighting.

The Givati soldiers stationed nearby received a warning that terrorists may attempt to blend in to groups of fleeing civilians and launch attacks.
Evidence produced during the trial indicated that S.ignored orders and fired on the group.

The IDF investigated the incident and decided to bring the soldier to trial. “As we said when charges were filed, this case will begin with manslaughter and will end with a weak result,” attorneys Meir Klinger and Oded Saburai, who represent the soldier, told Ma’ariv. “We welcome the prosecution’s decision to back away from the charges, even though this happened following a significant delay,” the attorneys added. The lawyers said it was a shame their client had to face such a severe and baseless charge for two years.

In response to the plea bargain, B’Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories called to reopen the investigation into the two deaths.

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=280945

[motiv-8]

This is also not.... really... political. A topic for legal theory maybe, but politics? Ehhhhh...

But yes the thread title is wrong. This guy wasn't even convicted of manslaughter, much less murder. He made a plea for the laughable charge of 'shooting without permission.' That is.. holy , that is an epic legal euphemism.

[issler]

Anti-semites, anti-semites all around!

[KoalaAkbar]

Anti-semites, anti-semites all around!

How typical. When we criticize anything relating to Israel, we are all of a sudden antisemitic terrorists.

[DimeBagHo]

How typical. When we criticize anything relating to Israel, we are all of a sudden antisemitic terrorists.

He has a point. If this were a murder case in the US everyone would be saying "WTF, where is the evidence?" But for some reason everyone is saying "WTF, only 45 days for double murder!" I think issler reasonably suspects that the difference is due to the accused being a Jew.

[s.rwitt]

Firing his weapon without permission was the actual charge, Ponti.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Firing his weapon without permission was the actual charge, Ponti.

Yeah, kind of surprising they dropped the manslaughter charge

[DimeBagHo]

The prosecution had no physical evidence (no bodies, no bullets or fragments, no ballistics). The case was entirely based on an IDF report about an incident where one male was shot and killed, and some palestinian reports about an incident where two women were killed. However, the incidents apparently occured on different days which suggests that, whatever similarities there were between the various reports, they were in fact about two different incidents.

What's surprising here is that this guy was ever charged with manslaughter. It looks like the prosecution had nothing.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I think he was joking when he said that

[elor70]

it was an accident...
next time dont use human shields

[Adhamh Ashashi]

it was an accident...
next time dont use human shields

An accident would usually be deemed reckless in the context. A man, trained to use a gun and have control over said gun in one of the world's most efficient military forces, shoots and kills someone accidentally screams to me reckless.

That should equate to a manslaughter charge in any regular legal sphere. Why it didn't here I would love to know.

[s.rwitt]

Well, DimeBagHo has already shown the complete lack of evidence for a manslaughter charge. Not sure why you think a "regular legal sphere" convicts people without evidence, but they usually don't.

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Didn't know there were problems with evidence. Apologies.