Three Sauron Investigation

[Withwnar]

I thought that I had found a fix but after more testing I now have serious doubts (see post 7). So this has been renamed "Investigation". I'll keep the rest of this post as it was for the "fix" for now but I really don't know if it is a fix at all.

UPDATE: confirmed: this is definitely NOT a fix. The problem is caused by reloading the game: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...4#post14163814

Some people, including myself, have had the most unpleasant experience of three Saurons in battles...

Attachment 236768

This fix should avoid it, or at least help to avoid it.

It has not been heavily tested, so no guarantees, but it is such a simple change that there is no harm in doing it. If it works then great. If not then, well, no harm done.

The solution is based on these findings. You might wish to read that for details but the short of it is: reducing Sauron's Authority level seems to solve it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

{TATW}\data\export_descr_character_traits.txt

Find the "Sauron" trait and comment out (with a ;) the Authority effect...

Trait Sauron
    Characters family
    AntiTraits VictorVirtue, AssassinMaster, AssassinCatcher, HighPersonalSecurity, Paranoia

    Level Sauron
        Description Sauron_desc
        EffectsDescription Sauron_effects_desc
        Threshold  1 

        Effect Command 10 
        ;Effect Authority 10 
        Effect TroopMorale 2 
        Effect Chivalry -10
        Effect HitPoints 10
        Effect Level 5

{TATW}\data\export_descr_ancillaries.txt

Do likewise for the "sauron_mace" and "one_ring" ancillaries...

Ancillary sauron_mace
    Type Security
    Transferable  0 
    Image sauron_mace.tga
    ExcludeCultures mesoamerican
    Description sauron_mace_desc
    EffectsDescription sauron_mace_effects_desc
    Effect HitPoints  2 
    ;Effect Authority  2 
    Effect Command  1 
    Effect TroopMorale  1 
    Effect Attack  1

Ancillary one_ring
    Type relic_ring
    Transferable  1 
    Image Zthering.tga
    Description one_ring_desc
    EffectsDescription one_ring_effects_desc
    Effect HitPoints  3
    ;Effect Authority  3
    Effect Command  3
    Effect Purity  -1 
    Effect Loyalty  -1 
    Effect Piety  -2 
    Effect Chivalry  -3

It is save game compatible but only to an extent: if Sauron has already appeared then there's a good chance that there are already three of him and this fix will not undo that. But if you fight him and kill two of them then this fix should prevent those two from regenerating.

i.e. Ideally this should be done anytime before Sauron appears.

[Emperor of Hell]

Nice work Withwnar but I was thinking that removing all his authority isn't the most elegant solution, we all want sauron with som authority, no ? It also makes sense if the ring gives authority bonuses. What if, together with Sauron, there spawns a character (in the Sauron region) with the Locked trait and a trait giving him a of authority? Only such a script isn't save game compatible. It is a good test though to see if the most authority gives a character a bigger bodyguard.

[Withwnar]

Sure, better solutions may come out of this. It is a quick-and-dirty solution as it is: if anyone wants to suggest alternatives - and test them - then by all means go for it.

To be honest I'm not sure what Authority does beyond influence the decision for the next heir. If that is it's only purpose then does it matter that Sauron has low Authority? Authority also plays a part for the character who is faction leader - but can't remember what exactly.

As I was suggesting in that other thread, I don't think it is Authority that is giving the number boost directly. I suspect he gets the extra "Sauron bodyguards" because he is effectively faction heir because he has the highest Authority. If that's true then if he became faction leader then he would get a bodyguard boost regardless of his Authority level. (Yes? That's how I understand it but I'm no expert in this.) If that's true then it would be undesirable for Sauron to become faction leader - for single-Sauron's sake - so better to prevent him from doing so by removing his Authority.

Spawning that other character would be an interesting test. Give him more Authority than what Sauron is given and see what happens to the Sauron numbers. But this might introduce other problems, like having a Mordor faction leader (which he could very well become with all that Authority) who is effectively unplayable.

Another idea is let Sauron keep his Authority but give him a Personal Security penalty to offset the bodyguard number bonus that Authority/Heir gives. This might work, perhaps even offsetting the faction leader bonus, though of course he would now be more vulnerable to assassination.

By the way, save game compatibility is not a major concern. Personally I'm more interested in the best long term solution. If not SGC then so be it.

[Kiliç Alì]

With, it is a good thing but there is a trait\anc effect called "BodyguardSize" that maybe you wanna try. I never tested it but you know... here an old thread where I asked for info on several, and this also...

[Withwnar]

Good one Kilic. Perhaps a negative value could be used. I found this (I added boldness)...

I did a little testing and think I have a better idea of how it works. The hardcoded trait Bodyguardsize is used to increase bodyguard # when the general gains command points..whatever those values are.

But it definitely works as a standalone trait. What needs to be tested is if negative values work and what the workable value range is; it's probably incremental 1.2.3....

I used a non general trait as a test on a governor with no combat experience, who had been in town for over 15 turns, bodyguard size 16.

The witch trait "Wrath 3", I replaced Magic 6 with Bodyguardsize 90, and applied to the general with the console "give_trait this Wrath 3". The trait can be seen beginning next turn, his bodyguard size was 27, turn after that it increased to 32.

The other general in the town I didn't apply any traits to stayed at 16..

Some people are saying that Command affects bodyguard size too.

Meanwhile, I did some more testing with Authority...

I think my theory of "effectively Heir" is wrong. I played as Mordor, spawning Sauron at the start with his normal Authority bonuses, and killing faction leaders and heirs to see what happens. Interestingly Sauron did not become Heir. The Nazguls seem to have very high Authority too but when none remained (after I killed them) it was an Orc that became Heir even though his Authority was only about 3, whereas Sauron's is about 15.

So while Authority does seem to impact Sauron's bodyguard size it looks like the size bonus is not due to Sauron being 'seen as' Heir or even the next Heir.

I also tried giving one of the Nazgul higher Authority than Sauron. i.e. Left Sauron's Authority effects intact but gave one of the Nazgul and even bigger bonus to make him the-most-Authority character. It did seem to work (one Sauron) but further testing is needed because I was also finding that 3 Saurons were not always appearing at turn 2. In one test there was still 1 Sauron at turn 2 but 3 Saurons at turn 3, whereas in all other tests so far 3 Saurons appeared the turn after spawning. This randomness is not good for verifying results; indeed it is possible that this whole Authority idea is nonsense ... maybe it was something else that gave me 1 Sauron after making an Authority change in the other tests.

~~~~

If anybody else wants to jump in with some testing then that would be great. I don't have much time at the moment and it would be nice to see this communal problem solved by a communal effort.

This will spawn Sauron outside of Minas Tirith at campaign start and lock him there...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

monitor_event FactionTurnStart TrueCondition
      
  spawn_army 
  faction england
  character  Sauron, named character, age 22, x 244, y 128, portrait sauron, hero_ability SAURON, label sauron1
  traits Sauron 1, NightBattleCapable 1, Locked 1
    unit  Sauron Elephants	soldiers 1 exp 6 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Halberd	exp 3 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Halberd	exp 3 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Uruks	exp 5 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Uruks	exp 4 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Orcs Mercs	exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Orcs Mercs	exp 4 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  2handed Orcs	exp 6 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  2handed Orcs	exp 4 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Morannon Guard	exp 1 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Morannon Guard	exp 2 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Archers Mercs	exp 4 armour 1 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Archers Mercs	exp 2 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Archers Mercs	exp 3 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Orcs Mercs	exp 4 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Mordor Orcs Mercs	exp 5 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Battle Trolls	exp 2 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
    unit  Battle Trolls	exp 3 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0
  end
  console_command give_ancillary sauron1 one_ring
  console_command give_ancillary sauron1 sauron_mace
  
terminate_monitor  
end_monitor

It is the same script that is used for his real spawning (plus the lock) including his traits and ancillaries.

[Kiliç Alì]

Maybe you should spawn Sauron with the "family" attribute? I am not sure how the Teutonic system works in the case of spawned generals...

Howewer I am interested in this thing. Will do some test and come back with results, if any

BUT I think neither command or authority affect the size of BG, since I have generals with different pattern of them in my several campaigns\mods and BG are always the same... with the exception of Faction Heir\Leader, whoose BG is always bigger.
You can test it by giving the "leader\heir" attribute to different characters in escr_strat (no errors here... would be perfect for a faction using "consules" instead of leaders like republics...): their BG will be bigger.

[Withwnar]

Now then, this is interesting...

Using that spawn-at-start script (post 5):

1) start campaign as Gondor
2) save game
3) attack Sauron to go into battle --> 1 Sauron
4) exit the battle
5) load that saved game
6) attack Sauron to go into battle --> 3 Saurons

(EDIT: I have since found that steps 3 & 4 aren't needed to create the problem.)

What? Even if you quit to desktop before loading the save there are still 3 Saurons. Double-what!?

I'm not saying that this is the only cause of 3 Saurons (i.e. quitting a battle with him). I am 90% certain that the first time I ever saw Sauron in battle there were three of him. I remember the feeling of surprise of seeing three when really looking forward to seeing this single-unit solution in action. Not to say that I'm above quitting a battle and trying again but I am quite sure that I did not do that with Sauron.

EDIT: ah, but it might have CTD'd during my first attempt to enter battle against him. I don't recall. I wonder if a failed-to-load battle counts in this.

So maybe this odd behaviour is triggered in other ways too.

In my campaign he was camped outside of my settlement (not sieging) and at least once I went to attack but then clicked the Withdraw button on the pre-battle scroll. To check out his army and have at look at The Big Man. Maybe that has something to do with it? There might have been spies involved too.

Regardless, what I can say for sure is that most/all of my tests are worthless because the 3 Saurons were probably there due to me doing the exit-battle-reload thing. i.e. The act of confirming that there was only 1 to begin with created the 3!

So at this point I would say disregard everything I have said so far about Authority; it's probably wrong.

@Kilic
I hadn't heard of Command or Authority affecting bodyguards either (until that thread I quoted from) and I haven't tested it myself. Influence did in RTW and it has been removed in M2TW so I was wondering if the bodyguard effect has been assigned to Command or Authority instead.

Having said that though, are the elephants (Saurons) actually the bodyguard? I don't understand the numbers. His 'official' bodyguard is 100 in size, the number of mounts (Saurons) is 3 but in battle is says 9. Maybe this whole "bodyguard size" way of thinking is wrong, i.e. maybe the 3 Saurons have nothing to do with bodyguards. Maybe it's just the game freaking out in certain scenarios due to this single-unit 'hack'.

[Kiliç Alì]

Ok I did some tests on te BGsize and the thing seems a bit complicated...

1st test - Extreme numbers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I created a traits,with 7 levels, going in this way: Effect BodyguardSize
-100, -50, -10, +10, +50, +70, +100

I used 7 generals whoose BG was 10 men each, removed their traits and gave them one level each

Results were: (trait-level BG)
G1 10
G2 10
G3 10
G4 22
G5 43
G6 43
G7 43

negative value left everything unaffected. +10 was almost half of the max (43)
This leads me that negative values have no effect and that it works via addition only... but let's go on with testing

2nd test BodyguardSize 2 - 18

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ok, now the same trait has 9 (max) levels going this way: +2,4,6,8...18.
Results: this
G1 12(+2)
G2 15(+5)
G3 17(+7)
G4 20(+10)
G5 22(+12)
G6 25(+15)
G7 27(+17)
G8 30(+20)
G9 32(+22)

I didn't go on with testing, figuring the pattern remains the same, so here is a more complete sheet:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BodyguardSize BG number increase
=< 0....0
2.......+2
4.......+5
6.......+7
8.......+10
10......+12
12......+15
14......+17
16......+20
18......+22
20......+25
22......+27
24......+30
26......+32
>=27....+33

As a Proof, te BG was 43 (+33) using a value of 27.

So I conclude that "BodyguardSize" effect increases the value of the Caracter's BG of +1\+2, and this up to the max number of soldiers in the unit.

If somebody else wishes to continue this inquire, let's move on the workshop...

Here the unit's EDU:

type             NE Bodyguard
dictionary       NE_Bodyguard      ; General's Bodyguard
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       General
banner faction   main_cavalry
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          NE_Bodyguard, 4, 0, 1
mount            barded horse
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, general_unit
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         7, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 60, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         11, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 15, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  13, 8, 3, metal ;mail: armor -1 defense +1 stat_heat -1 
;stat_armour_ex   7, 8, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        11
stat_ground      -2, -3, -4, -1
stat_mental      17, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1140, 1, 120, 95, 1140, 1, 200
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models NE_Bodyguard
ownership        england, scotland,  hungary, turks, france, frey, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, hre, moors, sicily, russia, byzantium, poland, slave,
era 0            england, scotland,  hungary, turks, france, frey, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, hre, moors, sicily, russia, byzantium, poland, slave,
;unit_info        11, 0, 32
recruit_priority_offset    0

I now wonder if the BG increasing goes by addition (+1\2 soldiers per level) or by addition*factor, where the x-factor lies into the base number of soldiers per unit (so a bigger BG unit, like spearmen, would get more increased that a smaller one, like a cav unit).

[Withwnar]

Very interesting Kilic. Good to know that it works. Shame about negatives not working but that's life.

There seems to be a x1.25 relationship between the effect level and the size increase, rounded down...

2.......+2 (2 x 1.25 = 2.5)
4.......+5 (4 x 1.25 = 5.0)
6.......+7 (6 x 1.25 = 7.5)
8.......+10 (8 x 1.25 = 10.0)
10......+12 (10 x 1.25 = 12.5)
...
27......+33 (27 x 1.25 = 33.75)

Or perhaps it is more complicated than that, where the base unit size is a factor too, as you say.

[Moneybags14]

Are you guys only having 3 saurons when the AI is mordor? I just ran my test again out of curiosity and it worked for me. As in I was mordor and waited a few turns after sauron spawned and then attacked. There was only 1 model. I will see if only the AI gets 3.

[Withwnar]

I only tested AI Mordor.

If you haven't already read post 8 7 then you might want to take a look. I'm now thinking that this has nothing to do with bodyguards, Authority, etc.

[The dead one]

This is a really weird thing it seems. I got it to :/ I don't know if it has to do with it but my Sauron never had the ring himself, even though there was a message that said he had. And that the general that founded it now longer had it. But he did sill had it of course. Other then that, the only thing I did was attacking an army of Gondor and there were 3 of him on the map. Nothing else of importans happened between that. Maybe the AI did som things but I dubt that.

[Withwnar]

So you're saying that the very first time you entered battle with Sauron there were 3 of him? Is it possible that the game crashed while loading the battle before that? i.e. You actually went into battle twice with him but it crashed the first time?

[Tokus*Maximus]

I (lucky) killed two of the three with a blazing catapault shot in my openning move. It took me then 25 mins of slog and most of my Elven army to cut down the remaining one.

[k/t]

You should try the trait with -1 and -2 to see if negative numbers don't work. -10 would have taken the bodyguard number to 0, so perhaps that's why they didn't work in your initial test.

[Kiliç Alì]

Done. Still no effects so it's confirmed it works only by addition

[bbe]

could this bug also explain why I have a unit of 5 balrogs spawning when I siege Moria? Or is this Sauron only.

[Withwnar]

No, that is the garrison script. It uses a different kind of spawning method which can add units directly into the settlement but can't do the single-soldier unit trick. It would be possible to spawn a single Balrog as a garrison script but he would be outside of Moria, which is a bit pointless.

[bbe]

ahhh alright that clears that up. Thanks

[Kiliç Alì]

1) start campaign as Gondor
2) save game
3) attack Sauron to go into battle --> 1 Sauron
4) exit the battle
5) load that saved game
6) attack Sauron to go into battle --> 3 Saurons

I wander, What happens if you delete the map.rwm (hence game cache regenerates?)