The British Isles - England vs. others?

[Qasper]

In the UK in some of it's nations there are movements for more independance...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/s...de?INTCMP=SRCH

Examples of e.g. Scottish national consciousness are in the below videos:



And perhaps also this video - Loch Lomond (by Runrig):



Or the more recent song Pride by Amy MacDonald:



Are these ambitions of some Scots and others (eg. some Irish, Welsh...) a real thing, or are they only a fleeting phenomenon?

Can you post videos related to non-English national consciousness (from eg. Wales, Northern Ireland...)?
.

[Denny Crane!]

Fleeting phenomenon? Guessing not from the UK?

We've had years upon years of devolution to partial independence leading to independent regional governments that control a great deal of the ways their countries are run. Look up Holyrood.

[Qasper]

We've had years upon years of devolution to partial independence leading to independent regional governments that control a great deal of the ways their countries are run. Look up Holyrood.

I looked up 'Yes Scotland' instead... sorry.

[Denny Crane!]

I looked up 'Yes Scotland' instead... sorry.

Its no problem I guess it just seemed strange because as a movement it is so entrenched and quite frankly inescapable and permanent over here.

[Qasper]

Its no problem I guess it just seemed strange because as a movement it is so entrenched and quite frankly inescapable and permanent over here.

Where's here?

[Denny Crane!]

Where's here?

Since we were discussing the UK I would of thought the UK would be an obvious implication, yes the UK.

[Denny Crane!]

Its irrelevant where I am since Geography doesn't define your contacts or your ability to communicate with people throughout the country as I do frequently and we have national media as well and for those that are interested panel debate shows that traverse the country and local media cna be accessed by anyone anywhere.

[Qasper]

Its irrelevant where I am since Geography doesn't define your contacts or your ability to communicate with people throughout the country as I do frequently and we have national media as well and for those that are interested panel debate shows that traverse the country and local media cna be accessed by anyone anywhere.

Why did you ask me if I was from the UK then, if "Geography doesn't define your contacts or your ability to communicate with people"?

Afaik Welsh, Scots etc. are allowed to travel freely (even beyong the UK) and have accesse to the internet and international forums and international social websites.

And you're really confusing me here: "throughout the country"... are you referring to England, Scotland, Wales and N-Irland as one country? And are you supposing that the UK is one nation as "we have national media"?

And who's "we"? And are the players of the Wales national rugby team dumb then? Playing for a Welsh national team?!

[Cesarz]

Why did you ask me if I was from the UK then, if "Geography doesn't define your contacts or your ability to communicate with people"?

Afaik Welsh, Scots etc. are allowed to travel freely (even beyong the UK) and have accesse to the internet and international forums and international social websites.

And you're really confusing me here: "throughout the country"... are you referring to England, Scotland, Wales and N-Irland as one country? And are you supposing that the UK is one nation as "we have national media"?

And who's "we"? And are the players of the Wales national rugby team dumb then? Playing for a Welsh national team?!

When he asked you, it appeared to be more of a rhetorical question, as it's pretty clear you aren't from the UK.
England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland are one country; The United Kingdom.
When he said "we" it's clear he meant British people.

Now, as for the OP, only a third of Scottish people support independence, though the number goes up and down depending on the poll.
And, once the Independence referendum in 2014 votes 'No,' there will be no arguing about independence for a few generations. So I guess you could say it's fleeting.
There is, at present, no Welsh or Northern Irish independence campaign. Nor does one look likely in either of those two places.

[Denny Crane!]

Why did you ask me if I was from the UK then, if "Geography doesn't define your contacts or your ability to communicate with people"?

Afaik Welsh, Scots etc. are allowed to travel freely (even beyong the UK) and have accesse to the internet and international forums and international social websites.

And you're really confusing me here: "throughout the country"... are you referring to England, Scotland, Wales and N-Irland as one country? And are you supposing that the UK is one nation as "we have national media"?

And who's "we"? And are the players of the Wales national rugby team dumb then? Playing for a Welsh national team?!

Because whilst I have the freedom to learn everything I want about japan and all its issues I dont, and while you can refer to each country and nation individually you can and everyone does refer to the Uk as a country.

Not being familiar with something that is bloody flaming obvious to anyone who has even remote familiarity with the UK tends to suggest you either arent from the UK or have your head rammed firmly up your arse, oh and you can take the pedantry And shove it up next to your head or whatever else resides up there.

[Stavroforos]

I don't think there can be movements for independence in these nations, because if they were nations, then they'd already be independent.

[selder]

I don't think there can be movements for independence in these nations, because if they were nations, then they'd already be independent.

Not all nations are independent, some nations join into unions with other nations that does not mean that they cease to be a nation. When you are single and join into marriage you can aways divorce and become single once more. You did not cease to be you just because you joined into a relationship with another.

[Stavroforos]

Not all nations are independent, some nations join into unions with other nations that does not mean that they cease to be a nation. When you are single and join into marriage you can aways divorce and become single once more. You did not cease to be you just because you joined into a relationship with another.

Awesome, now I can be happy I lived in the nation of New York.

[Denny Crane!]

Er

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2][3] In international relations, nation can refer to a country or sovereign state.[1] The word nation can more specifically refer to people of North American Indians, such as the Cherokee Nation that prefer this term over the contested term tribe.[1]

So yes they can be nations.

[Watercress]

Uhm, what's the purpose of this thread? Just to discuss nationalism in the British Isles outside of England? Well I don't know too much i'm afraid. Scotland certainly seems to have a properly developed independence movement, but I'm not sure it's going to be enough to win the 2014 referendum. Elsewhere, I get the impression Wales and Northern Ireland are a bit more committed to the Union.

[Poach]

Doesn't make it fleeting, Cesarz: those who supported it will continue to support it post-Referendum, those who oppose it will continue to oppose it. The majority of the "in the middle" crowd with no strong feelings either way will support it or oppose it depending on how Scotland does alone for the first decade or so if they win.

It just wouldn't be politically sensible to bring it up again for referendum for a few generations, as it'll still be mostly the same voters with mostly the same opinions until a reasonable amount of time has passed.

[Vizsla]

There is a theory that the disparate national identities within the British Isles have an origin going back around 1000 years to the Norman conquest.
Viz:
England was a single nation when it was conquered by the Normans who took it over completely by either marrying or killing off the local aristocracy. So England has retained its national unity.
The Scottish King very cleverly married his daughter to a son of the Norman English King and invited Norman English Lords to take lands in Scotland. Thus enabling Scotland to retain its independence because those Lords wanted to keep all of their holdings in both England in Scotland. Eventually Scottish national identity had its genesis in opposition to the English.
Wales was a disparate land of small principalities that never existed as a unified independent state – and still isn’t. It was slowly conquered over 200 years.
Ireland was the first colony. The Norman English viewed the Irish with disdain. Completely unfair because the Irish were converted to Christianity before the English and could therefore claim to have been ‘civilized’ first. But there you go. Ireland was the genesis of all that was evil about colonialism.
These simple facts explain everything about Britain today. Or maybe they’re just retrospective assumptions to justify the present.

[Azog 150]

The purpose of this thread seems very muddled and confused, if non-existent.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Are these ambitions of some Scots and others (eg. some Irish, Welsh...) a real thing, or are they only a fleeting phenomenon?

Well there's such a thing as a the "Scottish cringe" which I have personally noticed, either feelings of inferiority to England, or feelings of being a victim of English colonialism rather than in an equal union with England. Talk of independence by politicians seems to strengthen Scottish identity even if they will never want to be independent.

And you're really confusing me here: "throughout the country"... are you referring to England, Scotland, Wales and N-Irland as one country? And are you supposing that the UK is one nation as "we have national media"?

It's common for people from the UK to refer to the entire UK as a single country/nation even though it is made up of at least four different nations/countries.

It's a bit like the way way people from the UK are nearly always referred to as "English" rather than "British" abroad unless their specific nationality is made clear.

Awesome, now I can be happy I lived in the nation of New York.

You're confusing nation with nation-state. A nation can exist without its own state. It could be part of a union. The Czechs and Slovaks each were a nation when they were united in one state. The Kurds don't have a state but they have many of the qualities of a nation.

New York is a place inhabited by people of American nationality.

[Stavroforos]

You're confusing nation with nation-state. A nation can exist without its own state. It could be part of a union. The Czechs and Slovaks each were a nation when they were united in one state. The Kurds don't have a state but they have many of the qualities of a nation.

New York is a place inhabited by people of American nationality.

So you're saying that Scots and Welsh and English and all those people can't be British nationals?