Absolutely hilarious hypocracy

[SleepySteve]

I love how C.A. said they wanted to get rid of all the varying types of units, with different stats/skins etc. because they felt they didn't have much of an impact on the game and Blah blah blah. Yet they release DLC after DLC of what? Units with varying stats and you got it unique skins. Cracks me up. I bet they make ridiculous profits off those items!

[hochmeister devin]

What? When did they say they didnt want unit variety with different stats and different skins?

[SonOfCrusader76]

Sleepy, you need to wake up because you're not talking sense right now.

[SleepySteve]

Lol good one, but no i am certain i remember it since i could smell the stench of that lie a mile away from the moment i heard it. I believe it was prelaunch of shogun 2. I remember thinking "well they are going to release a game where all the factions look feel and play almost the same, then release dlc that is very expensive for the value you get out of it with unique skins and stats so people will buy their dlc and totally contradict themselves".... Well, called that one. Fots is a good expansion, but the rest of the dlc is pathetic. CA has likely saw the last of my benjamins Because of this.

[jonny duck]

Lol good one, but no i am certain i remember it since i could smell the stench of that lie a mile away from the moment i heard it. I believe it was prelaunch of shogun 2.

You got any proof to back that one up?


Just my 2 cents, but I'm fairly sure there was a lack of uniqueness in units because this was a civil war. No clash of cultures or civilisations with wildly different armies, just some samurai dudes killing other samurai dudes.

[SleepySteve]

You got any proof to back that one up?


Just my 2 cents, but I'm fairly sure there was a lack of uniqueness in units because this was a civil war. No clash of cultures or civilisations with wildly different armies, just some samurai dudes killing other samurai dudes.

Nope I don't remember where I saw/heard that and honestly don't really care enough to find it, But deff remember it. Just thought I would voice my frustration on the subject. The Dev's know how important those unique units are to people, without them most people get bored with these games. Which is why they limited them in the base game and pumped them out in DLC. And there was/is plenty of room for unique skins for each faction, proof of that is drum roll... All the DLC!

[SleepySteve]

Btw i have owned every single total war game to date, but ive rarely purchased the dlc, so they problably wont miss me anyways since im not a profitable consumer who buys everything that is released. Its those people that they like as thats where the majority of their profit margin is to be found. They hook ya with the base product, then milk ya with the add ons, not saying ca is particularly greedy as this is the marketing strategy every company is turning to. Too bad really.

[SleepySteve]

And My original post meant they claimed they were going to vastly reduce the amount of uniquely skinned unit types with arying stats, ie " elite units etc. (which they did in fact do, untilthey released a ton of dlc with those exact units) sorry for the vagueness there. Hopefully now you understand what i am trying to articulate.

[rasassfrass]

I know what sleepy steve is talking about and hes greatly misconstruing(spelling?) what they said. The comment he speaks of refers to empire in which there was a wide varity of unit types for both infantry and cav(line inf,gernaiders,dragoons,lancers,ect) where as in s2 we have pretty much 4 types for both inf and cav they are spear, sword, bow, and gun armed troops(i count nagitas as a type of spear). So no they didnt lie and they never said there wouldnt varity in unit apperances what they said was that the wepons and armor of units would be the same for all factions cuz well its a civil war and all the dlcs added was elits of the 4 basic unit types. Not to mention they said they were going for a rock-paper-sicorrs type of stratgey with the units...... So agaim they didnt lie you misunderstood what was said.

[Himster]

So what?
They do work, if we like it they get money. What's frustrating about that?
They promised to pare back unit variety for the sake of gameplay: they delivered on that promise and then they made more units available for those who wanted them, they wouldn't have made them if nobody wanted them.

[Alexmcm13]

I believe what he's referring to is when they said they'd be consolidating unit types into more archetypal roles in order to better manage a rock paper scissors mechanic, which they did, and which never included them saying they were removing different unit stats/skins... Their additions have all been geared at providing greater roster differentiation, which is something that is generally heralded as a good thing (although some are angry at the cost), so I wouldn't call it hypocrisy at all, given that they were only talking about reducing them to archetypes, not reducing their variation.

[rasassfrass]

See just a misunderstanding sleepy plus wrong place for this thread btw......

[SleepySteve]

I disagree with you, but your entitled to your opinion as i am mine. I recall them making the change stating that the different units with unique skins and small differences in stats didnt have an impact on the game. Which gave them the ability to make all factions have basically the same units. i was not refering to unit subtypes such as grenadiers etc.

[rasassfrass]

I know you were but thats not what they were talking about. What they meant by that statment is what others and I have already stated.... They got rid of all the different unit types etw and ntw had cuz as you have said it didnt impact gameplay because the different types basicly had little different stats and abilites that did well nothing making stratgey in those games boil down to who had more guns as now we have 4 basic unit types that do impact gameplay because the 4 types give units distinc roles in battle with advantages and disadvantages. And s2 features 3 basic subtypes for the 4 those being ashigaru, samuria, and monk varations of said units which have different stats that do make an impact for example monks have best attck but low armor with high moral while samuria have good armor and defense skills while ashi have worse stats than others but are the cheapist units so more can be recurited and these differences again do have an impact on gameplay for a rock papper sisors style game with further varations if you would do a test of this you would see for inatance the differences between yari ashi, sam, and monks are more than visual like ashi are good cannon foder and begiening troops sam can last longer in prolonged melee than others and have the best armor while monks are good shock troops but woth low armor and defense cant take ranged attacks and prolonged melee. So I dont see anything hypocritcal about that since there is a difference test it out you will see sure its not prefect but no game ever will be its not possible so if you do test it out and still feel the other posters and me are wrong pull up the article and prove it as for my proof well theres the dam game ive been playing for like a year. To be honest I feel like your nit-picking cuz of dlc and what are you nit-picking unit varity? Thats like some one nitpicking skyrim for the quest generator cuz they didnt talk about it ......

[SleepySteve]

Slow down there soldier no need to get all bent out of shape. No matter what way you slice it they profited big time by adding less content and flavor in vanilla, then making interesting unique units as dlc. So yea what i am saying i dont appreciate the route they are taking the games as i feel like they are profiting by making a less fulfilling base game.

[ccgr1121]

Slow down there soldier no need to get all bent out of shape. No matter what way you slice it they profited big time by adding less content and flavor in vanilla, then making interesting unique units as dlc. So yea what i am saying i dont appreciate the route they are taking the games as i feel like they are profiting by making a less fulfilling base game.

Oh for goodness' sake...

Look, in medieval Japan you had Spear/naginata(sp) units, katana/no-dachi (sword) units, ranged (bow and gun) units, and cavalry units.

In TW:S2 we have Spear/naginata(sp) units, katana/no-dachi (sword) units, ranged (bow and gun) units, and cavalry units.

Also, as has been said previously, these were/are split into warrior monk, samurai, and ashigaru categories.

Now, CA could have released squillions of versions of each fundamental unit type if they had wanted, since I doubt units cost much to make for them (hence you can buy ten for £2). But they chose not to.

Why?

Because imagine if they had. At the moment we can recruit Yari Ashigaru. This is common to all clans, minus the ikko-ikki and the oda, whose units are somewhat different. This is because all the clans were very similar in their recruitment of Yari Ashigaru. It would make no sense of the Chosokabe one to have more men, or the Takeda one to have more morale. THEY WERE THE SAME IN REAL LIFE (to a greater or lesser extent).

Comparing this to previous games, let us take M2TW. Spear Militia is pretty much common to all factions. However, each unit is somewhat different. I can't remember specifics, but in general from what I remember it was:

Western>Islamic>Eastern.

They were able to do this because they were representing different countries and cultures. THEY WERE DIFFERENT IN REAL LIFE.

So how does that relate to my original point about unit classes? Because, my friend, the Japanese clans were very similar to each other, and so all had similar units. The Genpei war / Sengoku Jidai / Boshin War were won due to good generalship, not superior units (to a greater or lesser extent). This differs from older TW games, were each faction / country had different units. Therefore, it made sense for CA to give each faction similar units.





As for the "making interesting unique units as dlc", I think £2 is a reasonable price to pay for 10 units. 20p is not bad for bullet-proof samurai! I am also OK with paying £6 for a new campaign (ROTS). However, I am opposed to the faction packs, although I won't storm off as a result of CA following the market trend. If you want terrible games, check out COD, Battlefield or any other mass-market FPS.

[SleepySteve]

I agree that its the new trend, thing is we could go back to the way things were, when games werent released incomplete, when games had the value they should and things werent withheld so they could be released as dlc. All that would have to happen is for people to value their money and stop taking it! To the last post, you highlighted perfectly my point. You say there is no room for unique units then mention the bulletproof samurai, which is a faction specific unit, which ca has released plenty of at this point. Those unique units should have been in the base game, like they used to be. Now they arent, so you can be milked by the dlc... But this wont likely change as people are so zombified by consumerism they cant even think clearly. Anyways thanks for the convo guys. God bless.

[jonny duck]

I agree that its the new trend, thing is we could go back to the way things were, when games werent released incomplete, when games had the value they should and things werent withheld so they could be released as dlc. All that would have to happen is for people to value their money and stop taking it! To the last post, you highlighted perfectly my point. You say there is no room for unique units then mention the bulletproof samurai, which is a faction specific unit, which ca has released plenty of at this point. Those unique units should have been in the base game, like they used to be. Now they arent, so you can be milked by the dlc... But this wont likely change as people are so zombified by consumerism they cant even think clearly. Anyways thanks for the convo guys. God bless.

Then this is a seperate argument regarding CA's DLC policy, something which they have previously addressed in a released statement and has been debated ad nauseum.

None of this belongs in the gameplay and strategy forum.

[rasassfrass]

Well welcome to the new standard of thw industry u think s2 is bad look at gears of war 3 or soul.cal or dragons dogma those are bad even compared to s2 and I think most dlc for s2 aint badly priced cept for faction packs those are ridiculus but this is the new trend and it aint goin nowhere

[Erwin Rommel]

None of those DLC units. NONE have the same bearing or importance as a humble Yari Ashigaru.

Take the Yari Ashigaru and a MASSIVE amount of the Sengoku Jidai is gone. Take those DLC units and hell even the Hattori Clan and Ikko Ikki Clan and you still have the whole Sengoku Jidai experience AND THEN SOME (that being the ahistorical katana variants of units etc).