need detailed advice on first few turns with koj

**ash874** · August 08, 2012, 12:32 PM

as i understand i should send all my cavalry to die in the first turn or so
cause they are too expensive
so i cant afford 8 turns of sieges
i tried a strategy that seemed to work where i send underpowered cavalry army causing the defenders to sally out
in the battle i ran away and they chase me
so their general and horse archers are separated from the main infantry force
i kill the general and the horse archers with my cavalry
and then manage to take out the infantry
i win but with loses
in this way i took all the five cities to my north
(attacked damascus with just one unit at first to make sure the egyptians cant attack it)
the problem was that they attacked gaza and akaba at turn 4 or 5 and all my troops where far off
if someone already has these few early turns perfected, id appreciate a detailed explanation

also another point i did not understand
the elite tiny units (i play on small unit sizes so they are about 20-25 men)
whats the point of building them? so few so weak and so expensive
none of them can defeat poulain infantry or even the regular outremer infantry
(this is a real questio nand not criticism. i really want to know how they are used)

i did a little custom battling and it seems like the poulain infantry are the best swordsmen unit out there

**Dago Red** · August 08, 2012, 01:56 PM

Firstly, Poulain men at arms are not swordsmen. That's a key point in BC, since the swordsmen (any unit with sword as it's melee weapon) have always been nerfed due to a wacky animation. I'm not sure what version you're on, I hear that in the latest this is fixed. Even if it is, your poulain will be doing AP damage giving them a huge edge against heavily armored enemies over swordsmen.

You will have to name the "elite tiny" units correctly that you're talking about -- each of the knights are different, both the secular and religious order ones and are better at different times (early, mid, late game) and against different enemies in different situations. However, I play with RBBR (on the previous version where RBBR still works) so some of these details may be different.

One thing is not different -- small unit size does not work with BC. I tried this long ago because I hate repetitive, non-decisive battles (though this is completely fixed in RBBR with complex recruitment system) and I like sieges (where huge unit sizes do not fit properly). But the way the units are worked out in numbers, playing on small is the worst possible option. Go up at least one size. Many of your units will simply not be functional with such small numbers since they will always be enveloped and will never be useful after one engagement. Higher unit sizes level the playing field a bit more to the point that the strengths of knights and the like can be employed.

In general with the KoJ: Defend. Strike quickly at neighboring cities as you did but then marshal your strength and only attack when the time is right. Even in attack, you should be essentially defending -- defending your knights until the exact moment when they can shatter their carefully chosen targets.

**zburanuki** · August 08, 2012, 02:04 PM

first of all about your elite units (i suppose you talk about late knight templars),they are few in number because they are so formidable units that could decimate many units if they were 50-75 soldiers (in small scale).on the other hand,their small number make them very valuable so they have to be used carefully,in fact you have to use them only for 1 devastate charge while other units hold your line.with that way you''ll root enemy units for sure.

as for the first turns, i have played some campaigns with jerusalem,but i'm not an expert.anyway i'll give some informations rather than solutions.well, at the beginning make sure that the ayyubids are at war with the makurians,that will give some time to send your main army in damascus and capture it.the it's up to the AI when the ayyubids will cease fire with the makurians and focus on you.also send one unit to antioch to prevent it from your amrneian allies,and keep your main army to the fort next to tyre.otherwise you can offer to the ayyubids gaza or al-aqaba for an alliance as they tend to accdept such things.anyway,first take anticoh and damascus and when you feel ready take the northern settlements slowly.

also that will help you http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=386374

**nein** · August 08, 2012, 03:17 PM

its always a good idea to state which version you are playing, just to be sure

anyway you have the basics right, using cavalry to blitz rebels. In my koj campaigns on the newer versions egypt will not attack me, giving time to build up my regions and forces... as well as sieze the levant. You are right about elites... medium forces are much better and cost effective in comparison due to unit size. I think you might be playing an older version due to the aggressive ayyubids?

**ash874** · August 09, 2012, 02:18 AM

im playing 2.3.2
the ayubids attack if you steal damascus from them
the army that spawns there attacks you immedietly after you take the city
but somehow you are allowed to use retreat option (eventhough youre in the city)
that ends the battle and his army doesnt attack again for a while

**zburanuki** · August 09, 2012, 04:21 AM

you have to download the latest patch because in 2.3.2 there is a bug in turn 100 or around there and makes you lose money.if the ayyubids take damascus go for antioch,in my campaigns the ayyubid stack near damascus heading south after turn 2.in a few words try to take one of the 2 big cities and recruit a ship so you can move your army faster.

**nein** · August 09, 2012, 06:02 AM

That is what I find strange about ash' experience zbur. When I blitz damascus the ayyubid stack runs off south... yet in ash' case it fights him

**ash874** · August 09, 2012, 08:08 AM

ok so i played 67 turns and you can see in the pic how it went
id say this faction is a little tricky in the first 5-10 turns but if you play it right (as in the first post) and if you have a little luck, this faction is definitely not among the hardest
not even medium
this is in fact an easy faction
the reason is that your unit roster is very sufficient (probably among the best in the game)
you have 4 castles inside your AOR (and you can make more)
and a very nice strategic position once you take out the ayubids
compared to iraqi seljuks or kwarezm or oman this is definitely quite a bright light at the end of a very short tunnel
those other factions have no light at the end of the tunnel at all

**zburanuki** · August 09, 2012, 08:59 AM

the only city you want now is edessa and i think the crusaders have fulfilled their goal.watch your words sir about khwarezm

with a little clever diplomacy they also have light in their tunnel

. i don't know about the other 2 factions.

**nein** · August 09, 2012, 12:51 PM

the khwarezmshahs are manageable if you secure an early alliance with the ghurids... until the mongs start monging anyway. Then again I think you can get an alliance with them... for a region or mountain of cash.

**ash874** · August 10, 2012, 03:54 AM

im thinking about turning some more cities into castles
i got 4 inside my AOR
yo uthink ill need any more?

**zburanuki** · August 10, 2012, 04:23 AM

definitely not.jerusalem is he only (i think) faction that gets its elites units from the cities and not from castles.tortosa and acre are enough for you i believe.

**ash874** · August 10, 2012, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by zburanuki

definitely not.jerusalem is he only (i think) faction that gets its elites units from the cities and not from castles.tortosa and acre are enough for you i believe.

hmmm
a shame i only seen your comment after i turned one of my cities to a castle..
what units are you speaking if though?
i thought the poulain infantry is the best units koj have (i dont use cavalary)

**zburanuki** · August 10, 2012, 06:55 AM

i'm talking about templar and teutonic knights,red hospitallers,the guards of jerusalem,the crusader sergeants,not to mention frnakish knights and the mounted templars,teutonics and hospitallers. why don't you use cavalry?

**ash874** · August 10, 2012, 08:14 AM

all the units you mentioned are not adequate on small unit size
i dont use cavalry because i dont fight in the open
at least not when i have a faction has great infantry

**zburanuki** · August 10, 2012, 09:06 AM

when i started to play BC i thought the same for pelekyphorous axemen (native varangian guard) but with four units of them and with siege towers they can clean the walls easily.the same happens with the templars,the dismounted tabardariyya and ghazi axemen. anyway you made your choice and so it be.

**ash874** · August 10, 2012, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by zburanuki

when i started to play BC i thought the same for pelekyphorous axemen (native varangian guard) but with four units of them and with siege towers they can clean the walls easily.the same happens with the templars,the dismounted tabardariyya and ghazi axemen. anyway you made your choice and so it be.

holy crap! i tried a custom battle of 50 poulain against the ghazi axemen who were 25
tried twice
the better result was when i managed to kill 4 of them

then i tried several of the crusader elite units
knights of st john and the guys with the two handed axes
both lost terribly
i have to say that its a little hard to know what to expect
you got slight differences on paper which translate to landslide victories
and you got the differences in unit sizes..
so i now understand that my intent on going with poulain infantry was wrong
but im not sure what to go with......... frustrating