The Dany hating [Do I have to specify that there'll be spoilers?]

[Ori]

As much as I think that would be a fitting end to her story-arc, GRRM said it was going to be a bittersweet ending to the novel. My bets are on her dying against the Others. Ultimately, when winter sets in, the prospect of even nation-states (or whatever you could call the different realms of ASOIAF) themselves will start to blur as people dedicate themselves solely to fighting the White Walkers and less to the maintenance of their personal realms or family lineage. Uniting Westeros (or Essos), ending slavery, avenging Ned, retaking the Westerlands, and all these other personal goals characters have set for themselves will fade away.

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So first of all, you really didn't need to write a wall of text that big. Christ, I have to like decipher this.

1) Your three reasons are bull. They're basically because it was ethical (so not a reason), because she could, and because it let her sack Mereen. Also, she had plenty of manpower to build whatever she needed (assuming she had the wood) with her 10,000 Unsullied. And, she gained no knowledge from those freedmen, most of them uneducated slaves. While taking Astapor was a smart move, she should've then sold it back to the Yunkai in exchange for ships to Westeros after destroying their army.

2) Actually she had no problem watching Astapor get put to the torch and forgiving all the crimes her Freedmen had done in Mereen, including fun things like rape-homicide. Also, the bulk of her "soldiers" were unarmed, untrained former slaves who happened to be following her around. Yes, leave them. Also, she specifically says she's trying to end slavery, not transport her new "army" to Westeros. Which is why she didn't demand the Yunkai take her to Westeros after crushing them, instead of marching on Mereen.

3) She would rule just fine. She has an army of Unsullied, the finest soldiers around, at her disposal and loyal Brazen Beasts. It doesn't matter how many people the Harpy's Sons kill, she'll be fine. And her dragons will be damn massive. Also that brings me to the point of how she should've at least tried to tame one of them, but that's for later.

4) Yes it would be a smart move, if she had tamed the one she was going to set loose. Then she could torch the ships in a few passes overhead and withdraw (dragonfire is especially destructive). Odds are it wouldn't get shot down, though that is a possibility. Also the reward for that minor risk is amazing. She would destroy their ability to import wood and put their trebuchet plans to halt for a very long time as they moved in wood by land. As for the Second Sons, they've already betrayed her (after betraying the Yunkai), so I doubt Dany would even take them. Plus they've sworn to Tyrion Lannister. Also the Maesters are almost definitely not in Mereen and you have no reason to think they are. You have no reason to think they even know/believe that the dragons are in Essos.

5) Actually the Khalasar that just found her was created by abandoning her when Khal Drogo died and last time she saw the Khal, Jhapo, she swore vengeance on him for killing some girl. She probably will get the Khalasar because GRRM loves Dany, but realistically that would be silly to think. Actually what'll probably happen is Drogon will kill Jhapo and the Khalasar will bend to Dany. As for the Iron Born, they'll all get crushed by the Volantine fleet unless Dany arrives in time with Drogon. Which again, could happen because GRRM loves Dany. But realistically we have no reason to think that.

6) Actually they've been extinct for maybe a hundred and fifty years. And it seems pretty easy for their Mother to tame them. Aegon did it with no horn, as did his sisters. She's probably in the process of taming Drogon now. She just needed to actually try.

7) The Narrow Sea (at least the Northern part) will probably freeze over, and when it does the White Walkers will march an army of wights across to invade Essos. Luckily Myr, Lys, and Tyr have bled out on each other already, so only four or five of the freeholds are in any position to fight the White Walkers. I also suspect Pentos will have some problems later on, but that's pure speculation. Anyway, Bravvos was already beginning to get ice in its canals according to Arya. After Dany wins (you're right, she will win) she probably will go to Westeros, at least hopefully.

[Littlefinger87]

1) My reasons are reasons. Some people actually act for moral purposes. This does not make them stupid or unreasonable. By freeing the slaves she gains instant obedience and a cult-like following that would take Unsullied training to replicate in other human beings. It's unlikely the Yunkai had enough ships for all of her host. And if you were the Yunkai'i, would you want to trade with someone who just broke a truce, took all their slaves, and stole their free companies through deceit and cunning? I don't think they would be in the trading mood. Yunkai was happy to see the back of Dany at that point. If Dany had sieged Yunkai then the offer of ships to Westeros makes more sense.

2) She had no problem watching Astapor get put to the torch after the Astapori themselves destroyed much of their city from within. she set up a council of government in Astapor that was overthrown (which was also overthrown itself several times). What loyalty does King Cleon deserve from Dany? She forgave the crimes her freedmen perpetrated during the sack of the city. During warfare many things become legal which would be illegal once order is restored. Those are the rules of war.
Armies need more than soldiers to survive. You must also have cooks, engineers, horseranglerss, food gatherers, smiths, armourers, and other skilled laborers. Not to mention she just freed them. If she left them they would die or most likely be sold again as slaves. Bit counterproductive after just risking your army to beat the Yunkai.

3) Actually, it does matter how many the Harpy's Sons kill. With each kill the Harpy will grow bolder which why she must either find and kill the Harpy or make peace with Meereen. There's a reason why the kills start off by ones and twos and increase to up 29. She chose peace, but could have followed Daario's advice and killed all the Wise Masters. Her father Aerys would have done that.

4) How do you propose you tame a dragon? Just because she know High Valyrian doesn't mean she can control them utterly. Not even the Targaryens did, which is why they built the pits. It seems as if the only means of total control is the Valyrian horn and we don't know for sure what the consequence of using such a horn will be for non-Valyrian/Targaryens (Victarian himself might be affected even though it's three others blowing the horn). Dany is no longer in Meereen and Barristan is likely to accept any help he can including the Second Sons. We both agree that the benefits of breaking the blockade are worth the risk of one dragon being killed/maimed. It's Tyrion Lannister who's sworn to the Second Sons. If he ever becomes lord of Casterly Rock he might have beggered himself. Good thing the Rock is also an active gold mine. Tyrion and Barristan Selmy know each other. He would accept Tyrion's help in reversing the Second Sons easier than he will find accepting Victarion's help, but Victarion has the dragon horn. the horn may very well turn the tide of the battle.

5) Well in order to gain control of the Khalasar she may well have to kill the existing khal and his bloodriders before they join her. The girl, Eroah,she saved from Jhaqo before he became khal. So what would prevent Dany and Drogon from killing Khal jhaqo and claiming his khalasar? You and I agree here. You did read the Victarion chapters where he sends his fleet out and captures each and every ship on their way to slaver's bay? Those Volantine ships may be filled with crew of questionable loyalty as the red priest Benerro is quite popular in Volantis and a big supporter of Dany. I still favor the Ironborn in a naval engagement, especially when surprise is not a factor. The only time the Iron Fleet lost is when Stannis surprisd them off the coast of Seaguard during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion.

6) Those Dragons weren't tame which is why the Targaryens built the dragon pits in King's Landing. They rode them but ask the Gardener King if those dragons are tame. It's likely Aegon, unlike Dany did not care as much about collateral damage.

7)If the Narrow Sea freeze over to form a land bridge it could be possible for them to invade. First the wall must fall. Melisandre is at the wall as well as 4000 wildlings that have sworn to guard the wall until spring. As long as there are men of the Night's Watch (and there are at Shadow tower, Eastwatch, and the other garrisons that Jon has opened up, around 500 NW in all) the Wall will hold. I have a theory on how the wall will fall. The horn of Joruman was supposedly burnt by Melisandre. But we now know that she has the glammer power that can hide the truth of what is truly happening in the flames. Perhaps she actually saved the horn. What if she is so intoxicated with her new found powers at the wall, she decides to bring the Wall down to allow her shadows to attack the Wights...

[Littlefinger87]

I said her numbers swelled to over 100,000, not her troops. She does have several free companies not including the Stormcrows that came from the freed slaves of Yunkai and Astapor, but they are as yet unbloodied. I talked about 100,000 men women and children as the amount of her loyal following which includes her fighting men, but also freed slaves that she wouldn't leave in Meereen. When discussing how many ships it would take to transport her people to Westeros it becomes necessary to describe how many people there actually are in Dany's following. I agree with you, Dany's force is smaller than Yunkai's but not by an unreasonable amount or else Selmy would never try to storm out of the walls.

What whole point of not knowing how the dragons died. We know the maester hated the dragons and all those who followed and used their power which is why the pyromancer's guild is a shadow of what it once was. We also know they are adept at healing and knowledgeable about poisons. It is not inconceivable that the maesters wormed there way into the Targaryen dragon pits and poisoned their food. Why would GRRM put the whole Sam chapter where he talked about the maester loyal to the Targaryens if not for this.

The Targaryens kept the dragons in their pits when they weren't being used. That's not taming them.

[ccllnply]

I said her numbers swelled to over 100,000, not her troops. She does have several free companies not including the Stormcrows that came from the freed slaves of Yunkai and Astapor, but they are as yet unbloodied. I talked about 100,000 men women and children as the amount of her loyal following which includes her fighting men, but also freed slaves that she wouldn't leave in Meereen. When discussing how many ships it would take to transport her people to Westeros it becomes necessary to describe how many people there actually are in Dany's following. I agree with you, Dany's force is smaller than Yunkai's but not by an unreasonable amount or else Selmy would never try to storm out of the walls.

Even still, 100,000 is not a reasonable number in my opinion. Obviously for the reasons, I gave before but also because I feel the numbers don't add up. After Drogo's death, her followers, although I can't remember the exact amount, were a few hundered at most. The Stormcrows number only a few hundered as well. I don't know about the Freed Companies but, for arguements sake, lets say 10,000. Add the Unsullied and you've got about 20,000. Like I said I'm hungover so I've probably left something out, but that's still another 80,000 people that have to be accounted for to make up your assumption

What whole point of not knowing how the dragons died. We know the maester hated the dragons and all those who followed and used their power which is why the pyromancer's guild is a shadow of what it once was. We also know they are adept at healing and knowledgeable about poisons. It is not inconceivable that the maesters wormed there way into the Targaryen dragon pits and poisoned their food. Why would GRRM put the whole Sam chapter where he talked about the maester loyal to the Targaryens if not for this.

Of course it's a possiblity. You'd know that if you just skimmed over the books. You stated it was fact, it's not. That's inaccurate.

The Targaryens kept the dragons in their pits when they weren't being used. That's not taming them.

They also rode them into battle. If you put a horse in a stable does that mean it's not tamed?

[Littlefinger87]

There are five hundred Storm Crows, 13,000 Unsullied, an unknown number of brazen Beasts, and an unknown number of men in her freed companies. The rest of the 100,000 are freed men from Astapor or Yunkai who chose not to be a part of her two free companies. So all we know for sure is the number of the Unsullied and the Stormcrows which takes the number up to 13,500 known troops under Selmy's command.

The rest enters the realm of guesswork, but given that Astapor and Yunkai were big cities themselves it is reasonable to assume that their slaves populations numbered in the tens of thousands. I like to say around 15,000 in Astapor and 25,000 in Yunkai. Those freedmen plus slaves would have swelled her numbers to over 50,000 before she got to Meereen. Dany became a victim of her own success to some extent. Her host grew too big to sail them all to Westeros and her experience with the Red Waste prevented her from marching west.

At mereen, not only did she free more slaves, she also gained the loyalty of the shavepates which form about half the brazen beasts. This mix of freed slaves and outright free Meereenese is why I boost that number up to 100,000 strong. As it really only makes a difference if Dany wants to transport them all to Westeros the discussion becomes academic at best and argumentative at worst and I don't really care all that much either way. Her available army though is still less than the Yunkai, but all of the people in Meereen, whether loyal to Dany or not, probably outnumber the combined Yunkish forces. Especially if you count the Ironborn as well.

It's more than a possibility and to label it as such is disingenuous to the text. "Perhaps it's good that he died before he got to Oldtown. Elsewise the grey sheep might have had to kill him, and that would have made the poor old dears wring their wrinkled hands."..."Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? ..."The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons... The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt.

Why send a maester from the Citadel to Dany unless it's meant to kill her dragons.

I can't believe you just compared a dragon to a horse. Dany rode Drogon from Meereen. Would you call Drogon tame? He almost snapped Dany's neck off and torched her hair. Not tame at all.

[Aegon VI]

"Why send a maester from the Citadel to Dany unless it's meant to kill her dragons."


YES Littlefinger87 is right there, i mean it aint like the Citadel had provided measters to lords, kings and well anyone with a holdfast for hundreds of years. oh wait THEY HAVE.
There is no reason for them NOT to send her one really, other than that she is not yet in westeros. But lets face it, she well get to westeros in the end and she has a massive military advantage with dragons, so why not help her? Afterall they do help EVERYONE else.
If they do kill her dragons, well that would just be anticlimatic wouldnt it.

[Mikail Mengsk]

She has a strong bond with her dragons and can make them obey her, but they definitely aren't tamed at all and can even revolt against her for a while.

[Littlefinger87]

Sure, it may seem innocuous that they send a master, but that's precisely the point: the masters can get close to the dragons without arousing suspicion. If I were the Targaryens I would make sure to infiltrate the Citadel as soon as I found out that the maesters poisoned their dragons. There is a reason why Daemon Targaryen chose to become a maester.

Dany or Barristan have to be warned about the grey sheep threat. It's not as much of a threat now that the dragons are loosed: thank you Quentin!

[Littlefinger87]

Sure, it may seem innocuous that they send a maester, but that's precisely the point: the maesters can get close to the dragons without arousing suspicion. If I were the Targaryens I would make sure to infiltrate the Citadel as soon as I found out that the maesters poisoned their dragons. There is a reason why Aemon Targaryen chose to become a maester.

Dany or Barristan have to be warned about the grey sheep threat. It's not as much of a threat now that the dragons are loosed: thank you Quentin!