The Dany hating [Do I have to specify that there'll be spoilers?]

[Mount Suribachi]

Not only do they display unease and other more obvious things when something is up but also Greywind in particular helps them get through difficult situations and battles no less than three times. If Robb's warged with it as much as Jon had at the same time he should know it knows when is up to something. At no other time in the books do they put their direwolves actions down to random pet behavior then they do at the RW.

Not True

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At the end of ADWD, Jon puts Ghost's behaviour down to one of the wilding boars in Castle Black.

GRRM does a good job misdirecting us in such situations - I certainly never twigged what was about to happen One thing is for certain in TWOW, whenever a wolf starts acting funny....

I still don't understand why everyone hates Catelyn, Sansa yes since in the first book she was to put it mildly... a female dog. But why Catelyn?

Because she's a horrible person. She might have a veneer of courtly courtesy, but underneath it she's a bitter, spiteful woman. Her treatment of Jon is disgraceful - is it his fault he's Ned's bastard? She tells herself she's forgiven Ned, but its not true, she's merely transferred her hate and resentment to Jon.

She treats Robb like a child, not like her king. She constantly, constantly, when in his presence starts thinking of him as a baby or young boy, sometimes even saying those thoughts out loud. She constantly undermines him, sometimes in front of others. She disobeys him. If she weren't the Queen Mother, her head would be on a spike for freeing the kingslayer.

Her treatment of Edmure is even worse. I have yet to figure out quite why she treats him so badly. Every time they meet, the first exchange is always a greeting from Edmure and a rebuke or spiteful comment from Catelyn. She gives him no credit for anything, puts no faith in anything he plans. Although factually speaking he is not Lord of Riverrun whilst Hoster Tully lives she bristles with anger and resentment any time someone refers to him as Lord Tully, he is in effect the acting and rightful Lord of Riverrun and the head of her house.

Finally she makes a string of terrible decisions. People talk about Dany being a terrible leader, but she's got nowt on Lady Stark.

Believing Lysa's letter - WRONG
Forcing Ned to go to Kings Landing - WRONG
Going to KL and trusting Littlefinger (who has had 15 years to brood on his humiliation by House Tully - WRONG
Kidnapping Tyrion - WRONG
Going to the Vale - WRONG
Arranging the marriage alliance between the Starks and the Freys - OK, she actually did a great diplomacy job here and she can't really be blamed for the fact it turned into an epic FAIL
Going to arrange a peace treaty with Renly and Stannis - FAIL
Repeatedly disobeying Robb and Edmure's requests/orders to go back north - WRONG
Leaving her crippled son and emotionally unstable son all alone with no family and no leadership in Winterfell - WRONG
Freeing Jaime - so WRONG I can't even begin to put into words, even though it is the beginning of Jaime 2.0 for the reader.

People talk about how bitter and vengeful Lady Stoneheart is. Fact is that Cat was already like that long before the RW. As I do my re-read and add notes as I go along, my Catelyn chapters are full of "No!", "Wrong!" and "!"

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Not True

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At the end of ADWD, Jon puts Ghost's behaviour down to one of the wilding boars in Castle Black.

GRRM does a good job misdirecting us in such situations - I certainly never twigged what was about to happen One thing is for certain in TWOW, whenever a wolf starts acting funny....



Because she's a horrible person. She might have a veneer of courtly courtesy, but underneath it she's a bitter, spiteful woman. Her treatment of Jon is disgraceful - is it his fault he's Ned's bastard? She tells herself she's forgiven Ned, but its not true, she's merely transferred her hate and resentment to Jon.

She treats Robb like a child, not like her king. She constantly, constantly, when in his presence starts thinking of him as a baby or young boy, sometimes even saying those thoughts out loud. She constantly undermines him, sometimes in front of others. She disobeys him. If she weren't the Queen Mother, her head would be on a spike for freeing the kingslayer.

Her treatment of Edmure is even worse. I have yet to figure out quite why she treats him so badly. Every time they meet, the first exchange is always a greeting from Edmure and a rebuke or spiteful comment from Catelyn. She gives him no credit for anything, puts no faith in anything he plans. Although factually speaking he is not Lord of Riverrun whilst Hoster Tully lives she bristles with anger and resentment any time someone refers to him as Lord Tully, he is in effect the acting and rightful Lord of Riverrun and the head of her house.

Finally she makes a string of terrible decisions. People talk about Dany being a terrible leader, but she's got nowt on Lady Stark.

Believing Lysa's letter - WRONG
Forcing Ned to go to Kings Landing - WRONG
Going to KL and trusting Littlefinger (who has had 15 years to brood on his humiliation by House Tully - WRONG
Kidnapping Tyrion - WRONG
Going to the Vale - WRONG
Arranging the marriage alliance between the Starks and the Freys - OK, she actually did a great diplomacy job here and she can't really be blamed for the fact it turned into an epic FAIL
Going to arrange a peace treaty with Renly and Stannis - FAIL
Repeatedly disobeying Robb and Edmure's requests/orders to go back north - WRONG
Leaving her crippled son and emotionally unstable son all alone with no family and no leadership in Winterfell - WRONG
Freeing Jaime - so WRONG I can't even begin to put into words, even though it is the beginning of Jaime 2.0 for the reader.

People talk about how bitter and vengeful Lady Stoneheart is. Fact is that Cat was already like that long before the RW. As I do my re-read and add notes as I go along, my Catelyn chapters are full of "No!", "Wrong!" and "!"

Lysa was her sister.
Ned going to King's Landing:In any other situation being Hand would have been extremely beneficial for their family.

Trusting Littlefinger: Most people in the series trust him for baffling reasons, plus he was her childhood friend.
Kidnapping Tyrion:She was misinformed and she thought he attempted to murder her son.

Mistreating Jon: He was a constant reminder that her husband was unfaithful to her.
Freeing Jaime: Can you imagine how stressed she was at that point?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I still don't understand why everyone hates Catelyn, Sansa yes since in the first book she was to put it mildly... a female dog. But why Catelyn?

[Prophet1331]

I have to agree with Mount Suribachi, Catelyn did make allot of bad decisions during the series, but at least she got killed in a cruel way and was forced to see her family go down before her eyes (cruel I know) unlike Dany who hasn't for instance witnessed one of her dragons die or the horrible mutilation of her blue beard lover at a dinner table.

Plus Dany is one of the major characters with claim to the throne, Catelyn was just a way to portray what was happening at Robb's court.

I hate the new Lady Stoneheart more than Catelyn. Catelyn herself at least had some interesting moments, whilst Stoneheart only goes on a Frey killing rage. It's understandable but I would prefer Beric Dondarrion back doing justice than have her kill everyone.

[Archon Patriarch]

Yeah they lost Beric in the worst trade off. If I was Beric I'd say " that crazy SOB! Let's hang some frey's on our own, I still have a nice castle in the marches to go back to when we're done here..."

[Mikail Mengsk]

I won't put much shame on Cat for trusting his sister or going to the Vale after kidnapping Tyrion: she trusted her sister and can't imagine how "bad" Lysa has turned.

[Archon Patriarch]

Yeah I'd trust my brother if he said something similar in that situation, with hindsight it is easy to put Catelyn down I find but that's not really fair - I mean Dannny you can see what's a dick move in advance... Also you expect the Lannisters to react but starting a war is probably more of an over reaction than they expected. As is the Lannisters finding out so fast.

[Mhaedros]

So you're the head of a very well respected house, and your son has been taken captive. You might not like him; but he is your son and if you let it happen without doing anything your people will see you as weak. You have no choice but to call the banners and become a threat to the ones that took your son, unless you want your people to see you as an unfit lord.

Cat took Tyrion in a room full of people sworn to houses and sellswords. Only one of them would have to ride west to Lannisport or Casterly Rock and Tywin would hear of it.

[Archon Patriarch]

Indeed but it happens in the space of a few days, I am surprised by how quickly they respond and trust whatever source says he's been taken. I'd thought he'd demand release and call his banners before mass slaughters but when you put it like that it does make more sense, from Tywins point of view I understand why he would do it. What's the world coming to advised on great house maneuvers by a Frey!

[Mount Suribachi]

When she went to KL, Ned told her to prepare for war as he thought it might well come. The Lannisters are easily offended, and over-react massively to any slight, real or perceived. When they repay their debts, they repay them in the harshest, most punitive way. Ask Ser Ilyn Payne - just don't expect an answer

Cetelyn knew all this, that their pride and vanity is matched by their ambition and ruthlessness.

[Archon Patriarch]

The targaryens did that to him But I see your point, she is pretty low on the effective game of thrones scale. But look at the two best players ; One murders kings when he feels like to throw people off and the other people have no idea what he's doing anytime anyway...

[Mount Suribachi]

I thought it was Tywin?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

I thought it was Tywin?

Aerys did that, when he heard Ilyn saying Tywin was actually ruling the Kingdoms

[Mount Suribachi]

Aerys did that, when he heard Ilyn saying Tywin was actually ruling the Kingdoms

Of course, my bad

Freeing Jaime: Can you imagine how stressed she was at that point?

And yet through her POVs we can see that she's not sick with grief like those around her think - we see her specifically think how its not that, that she knows what she's doing (except clearly she doesn't).

I did forget to give her credit though for telling Robb not to send Theon away, and then realising that Grey Wind was onto something when he started growling at one of the Freys. Unfortunately she had given so much bad advice, and done so many wrong things, that by then no-one listens to her counsel.

[Double A]

Dany was acting like a fool in ADwD, but I'm pretty sure she realized that when she flew away from all the on a goddamned dragon.

[Archon Patriarch]

I was re reading some of a storm of swords 1 and I see your point about catelyn for a lot of what you said. Releasing Jaime is such a massively foolish move it is incomprehensible. I mean it loses the support of the entire Karstark forces as well as SETTING THE KINGSLAYER FREE FOR NOTHING.

[Brenden_Tully]

She is an idiot. i especially hate her narrow-mindness, also her views when she was talking about Brienne and said "is there anything worse than an ugly girl" or something like that...

[deusvult6]

She is an idiot. i especially hate her narrow-mindness, also her views when she was talking about Brienne and said "is there anything worse than an ugly girl" or something like that...

She is much given to the unconscious prejudices of her birth and class. The worst part of her for me was that she thought she should be utterly forgiven for what she had done because, oh, I'm a mother! She should have been begging for a tower cell to spend the rest of her life in.

And about Dany (OP) I really liked her on her conquering spree. She demonstrated a flair for poetic justice and clever tactics that were wily just short of the point of being devious. Then she let her emotions get to her and she demonstrated that she makes a far better ruthless conqueror than she does a kind ruler, especially in a land with such foreign culture. If she had been as uncompromising a ruler as she had been a general, she'd've done much better or even if she had accepted the fact that she had done for the slaves what she could and only so much can be done for people unwilling to do for themselves and moved on, she would be assaulting a crippled Westeros by now.

But then we wouldn't get to see the Shadowlands which I am so curious about, so maybe she'll take the opportunity to remember that she is Blood and Fire not Hugs and Slaps-on-the-Wrist and turn this all around again.

[Ori]

I guess that kind of happens when you bring your Mom with you on campaign.

[Mhaedros]

He didn't, she just came along