About Rivers and Roads

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

This is about a topic i am thinking about since the first Rome Total war came out. We always talk of the great Roman Roads and their role as the highways of the antique, but to be honest they are limited in use and especially Rivers and Coasts are of bigger significance.

Let’s take a look of the Marching Routes and the Supply management in Germania Inferior and Superior in the Augustian Era. After the legions of Drusus and Tiberius arrived in these Regions it is clearly that they always march and build their legionary camps and storages near the rivers. All the large Cities are built on the Rhine and every large Legionary Camp too. The reasons for that are simple. Specially before roads were build rivers were to only way to transport the mass of supplies the Legion needed to survive in an area were large cities were rare and the populations was living in small villages and farms which were only able to produce a small profit, not enough to cover the need of an army. But also after the Roman roads existed the rivers stayed the main transport way in these regions.

I will give a few examples.

Aliso? / Haltern - Hofestatt:

Haltern is a Legionary Camp on the Lippe/Lupia, one road which seems to be an attacking lane in to Germania Magna. Some assume that Haltern is the Aliso of Tacitus but this is a different theme where historians argue since decades. Interesting is besides the Legionary Camp the found of a small Shipyard in a sub camp in Hofestatt. After Morel[1] the found includes Ship houses, quarters for soldiers and rests of wharfages. Based on a graffiti there is also a hint of a Alexandrian ship crew.

The Found of Haltern-Hofestatt after Morel 1987.

Flevum? / Felsen I.

Like Haltern is Felsen an example for a roman fleet outpost of the early Germanic Campaigns. Felsen was probably built (15/16 AD) as a small outpost in the Rhein-Maas Delta used to supply and restore ships. Interesting is that this post is not on roman ground, it is on the lands of the Frisians which were independent. Founds are besides the small camp, a mole and a pier. In case of the first Phase Felsen I it might be that the found of one building is a ship house, which is not impossible than we have a ship house for later phases. It is possible that Felsen is identical with Flevum which was attacked by the Frisians 28 AD[2]. The phase Felsen 1 ends at this point and the second phase was really short between 40 and 47 AD.

The found of Velsen I after Bechert and Willems 1995.

A long the Rhine and his sidearms like the Lupia the romans had since the early days a transport system based on large riverharbors like in Mogontiacum, smaller harbors for non-permanent legionary camps and a lot of Outposts to restore and resupply the ships.

The most used ships were the pram, ideal for transporting supply and animals, and man ships (Manschaftsschiffe) which were used to patrol and transporting man. The fastest method to travel in the antique was the travel per ship and regions you would see by marching on foot in weeks or months, were reached in days. Without the use of the rivers, roman expansion in Germania would be nearly impossible.

Pran, found in Zwammerdam, prov. Zuidhollan 1987. Sunken 175 AD.

I gave examples of Germania because that is the field of my studying but I read also studies about the Danube or the gaulish river system. I assume that the transport system is comparable to the germanic one.

What I suggest now is that Rome should have a better transport system besides the movement of the general by foot. I have two possible ways in mind to realize that.

The first and obvious one is to make larger rivers, especially for the Danube and the Rhine. To have the full system as it was, sidearms should be possible to use too.

The second one is to use the system of Fall of the Samurai. In FotS we could use trainstations to send troops on other points of the map. That system should work for harbors to and would have a lot of advantages. First CA had not to change the Campaign Map which is surly in an advanced status right now and second we would have finally a more realistic traveling system beyond the river system. It could be possible to travel from Rome to Africa in one or two turns instead of 4 or 5. I always think about how ridiculous it is that we need years to reach Africa when normally less than 3 days per ship were the normality.

I apologize for my limited english, but because i lack the ability to use advanced terms, specially in the scientific way, i tryed to keep it simple so that everyone should be able to understand me.

Update: Trainsystem on Habors should have the possibility that ships can sunk or beeing attacked. Maybe per Random Events or the use of Agents, Armies.



[1] Morel 1987, 221-230; 1988, 358-369; Konen 2000, 288-294.

[2] Tac. Ann. 4, 72-74. ; Bosman 1999, 92 f.

[Ichon]

I don't have FotS but can you intercept soldiers on trains? If so that is potential but if not then I don't want to see Legion disembark in Rome to arrive in Egypt without any chance of a naval battle/storm. Also given the work on fleet battles/land engagements I don't see how a system like that is something CA would do.

Using rivers and reducing some of the extreme transport times of earlier TW games is something I am very interested in however especially if also used in some type of supply system.

[oppaiO_O]

i heard in one of the many same interviews that they are making big rivers transportable so i guess ca went with that option?

[Rorarii]

From it's earliest days, Rome was sea trading port. That's right, shallow draft ships could move up the tibur but no further than Rome. Foreign merchants would sail to Rome to trade. The Forum Boarium implies it was a place to purchase livestock ? There was a land salt trade route from the coast to mountains and a metals trade route from north, across the river, at Rome, then down south to Greek cities.

To put it simply rome, Rome was a trade hub. Hopefully the game might show this?

R

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

From it's earliest days, Rome was sea trading port. That's right, shallow draft ships could move up the tibur but no further than Rome. Foreign merchants would sail to Rome to trade. The Forum Boarium implies it was a place to purchase livestock ? There was a land salt trade route from the coast to mountains and a metals trade route from north, across the river, at Rome, then down south to Greek cities.

To put it simply rome, Rome was a trade hub. Hopefully the game might show this?

R

But Ostia as the main habor is somethinge that came under Traian. Before they used Puteoli near Naples.

[Ichon]

To put it simply rome, Rome was a trade hub. Hopefully the game might show this?

R

Dynamic trade routes... if Rome is sacked and the faction destroyed another city might arise as trade hub but at the game start Rome certainly should be.

[Yomamashouse]

I think transport should be possible on larger rivers.

As for speeding up the travel of soldiers across long distances on land, that always comes with the risk of bum-rushing the enemy and creating an unfair advantage. Perhaps if you had the infrastructure in your own lands you could have very rapid marching as long as the troops moved through one contiguous section of your own land. This would reduce unfair entry into enemy lands, but also eliminate the criminally unrealistic timeframes of travel in the previous games (taking a decade to send troops from Italy to Central Iberia.

[PietroMicca]

navigable rivers are already being tested

we can reasonably expect them

[Mausolos of Caria]

It would be great to see rivers and roads playing a much bigger role. More flexible and dynamic trade, tactical advantages and the supply system, and sea battles on large rivers like the Danube or the Rhine or seaforts in them would be amazing

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

It would be great to see rivers and roads playing a much bigger role. More flexible and dynamic trade, tactical advantages and the supply system, and sea battles on large rivers like the Danube or the Rhine or seaforts in them would be amazing

To be honest i never notice a real seafort on the rhine. We have something like castles, like in Mogonticacum but they should secure the bridgehead on the rightside of the rhine. I know some guys who work on a study about the possiblity to use the bridge in mogontiacum as a fortress to control the rhine like the franks did it when the vikings sieged paries around 800. The problem is as far as i know that this is very theorectical in these phase.

But for Citymaps like Carthage or Alexandria i would like to see haborchains to lock down the habor if we have combined operations in a siege. The first pictures could point in that direction.

[Mausolos of Caria]

To be honest i never notice a real seafort on the rhine. We have something like castles, like in Mogonticacum but they should secure the bridgehead on the rightside of the rhine. I know some guys who work on a study about the possiblity to use the bridge in mogontiacum as a fortress to control the rhine like the franks did it when the vikings sieged paries around 800. The problem is as far as i know that this is very theorectical in these phase.

Yeah, sorry, I meant that in general, or more on the Danube where I read about seaforts. Or on the Rhine or at other rivers you could have fortified bridges and other fortifications at the rivers which would make them more of a fighting place.
It would also be cool to have floods which destroy your supply lines and the farm's fields and might appear on the battle map, but that's probably too much to ask