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Thread: Script ideas

  1. #41

    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Thanks a lot for your interest. At the moment it's just me working on the project, the goal so far is to first make this mod playable without changing anything (unless it's necessary because of the game engine). Once that is done I would like to expand on it by writing an extensive script and incorporating other ideas regarding the time line, units, starting positions etc.
    The map, UI and other map elements have been already transferred, Right now I am left with the conversion of the battle models - a time consuming and repetitive exercise.
    If you wish to have a look at the UI, then the map teaser should give you an impression on how it looks.
    Translation\correction of translated text will be a an issue as I have been using google which is not very satisfactorily but at least conveys a sense of what is meant in descriptions.
    Your knowledge of modelling should come handy when it gets time to put more variety into the models (RTW models did not make use of multiple model parts). If you are not very conversant with the peculiarities of the game engine regarding models or other aspects of the game then I would recommend to have a look at the workshop.
    Once you have this base mod out, and if you move onto expanding it, I would very much like (and be able to) help in regards to research. I have read the novel numerous times (I do a read through of it once a year), and I know a great deal of information on the historical parts of this period as well. (If anyone wants some examples, they should see my posts on the historical boards on the Koei forums, though unfortunately they are currently down at the moment. But if it is back up and anyone searches, I go by the same username as I do here: Yue Fei.)

    I'm also a fairly decent artist (at least when it comes to sketching with pencil), so if I can help in that manner if it comes to it, I'd love to be able to help there as well.

    Obviously this is all talking about the future, but regardless, I'd like to let you know that I'm interested.
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  2. #42
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    I'm actually in the process of helping Gigantus and, although I obviously can't speak for him, my impression is that he wants to "revamp" the mod and continue it after it gets ported.
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  3. #43
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    'Revamp' is indeed on the cards once the base version works. That should help to give everyone participating to get a better idea of what is happening. That is also the major reason why I released the map teaser, a 'hands-on impression' is by far more telling then screenshots or trailers.
    Last edited by Gigantus; August 24, 2012 at 07:01 AM.










  4. #44

    Default Re: Script ideas

    The 1648 mod is very cool, the custom battles were amazing and anything along similar lines would be nice if it would fit in. Historically researched would also be nice, because it gives you an incentive to look up real history and learn things. In most mods, missions are random, based on rebel settlements available, etc. It would be interesting if missions could be scripted based on history, also historical characters with a few strong (good or bad) traits. I liked the 1648 timeframe of 30 years (and in FKoC of 4-7 years). They are much more realistic for campaigns and for that 12 turns per year would probably be better.

    One suggestion or question - you would need battle models for buildings as well as units, how is that going to work? Of course it would be brilliant to have new building models but I imagine also a huge undertaking.

    Another suggestion would be to make enemy generals hard to kill, so they survive in battles. I do not like enemy historical characters dying in their first battle. I have to keep an eye on them in FKoC so that they do not get themselves killed by launching themselves into my pikemen. I have modded the FKoC battle AI so that the general unit has low preference for spearmen, high for cavalry. I have also given the AI generals traits of high health and high cowardice so they run from battle before they are killed. It sometimes works. Of course the cowardice traits and high health (also low morale but higher dread) should be only for the computer player's leaders. I do not know how that could be scripted, as I did it with cheats. It would be similarly nice if the strategy skills of the computer player's more famous generals could be preferentially increased. Ideally historical generals of the computer player should stay back and call a retreat when the tide of battle is turning against them, without engaging the human player too much themselves. I have seen this in Kingdoms Crusades a bit but in no other mod. Historical generals should also stay out of settlements in risk of being besieged - because then they will be eliminated.

    I liked the larger armies in 1648 and situations such as with Gracul SS AI when, if there is an invasion (Jihad or something) then you get stack after stack attacking you, also if possible 3-4 stacks moving together as a horde, which happened sometimes in 1648 (e.g. Trier and Baden spawned small hordes). Those small hordes were a headache but exciting to confront.

    Supply (e.g. with wagons) is an interesting concept to make invasions of foreign lands a bit more difficult, though I do not always understand how it works.
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; August 25, 2012 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #45
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    I have a few things on the back burner that we used in 1648 - the scripting of historical battles and custom missions (tested but not implemented in 1648) are two of those.
    Custom battle buildings I will have to skip unless there is someone that really know what he\she is doing.
    The "support" system for armies is a possibility as well - the special unit you mentioned was involved in that via scripting.
    We experimented with AI traits in 1648 to give an edge to AI generals (see 'KI Unterstützung' in the script and related trait) and had noticeable differences, but obviously protecting them from themselves (riding head long into a phalanx) will help.










  6. #46
    Cronos Impera's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Scripts which can be altered to improve the gaming experience.
    Kalmar Union script from the Teutonic Campaign
    Could be used to simulate the Restoration of the Han Dynasty. By that you have to keep an open faction slot with its icon.
    Liu Bei, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang could all benefit from this script. By seizing a decent portion of the empire and saving the Emperor (by claiming Luo Yang) they could earn the title of "Imperial Protector", and their faction becomes "Han" with the appropriate symbols and uniforms.
    Priests
    Could be used for scholars. These scholars could influence the prevailing attitude towards a faction "behind enemy lines" by teaching the values of their approach.
    Heretics
    Could be used for traitors. Scholars which have betrayed their masters and are spreading malcontent among the inhabitants. Change "heresy" with "disillusion".
    Changing religion
    Warlord states which have become large enough (except the Wudomi and Heishan) and are part of "fractionism" convert to "a new order".
    "Daca voi nu ma vreti, eu va vreu" (Alexandru Lapusneanul)

  7. #47
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    There are no religions as such, more like 'influence' - hence I had planned the priests as 'instigators'. Heretics would function in a similar way.
    A fusion of two or multiple factions could be worked at, pending their influence in the game play. The Kalmar script is based on the merging - conditions can be set at will.
    Changing religions can be messy if not done correctly - especially were religious buildings are concerned - but something can be done there via event conditions in the EDB.

    Thanks for the ideas!










  8. #48
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cronos Impera View Post
    Yes, any Liu family member could become an "imperial uncle" and wield great influence over the Han loyalists, or overthrow the emperor and start their own off shot.
    In the RTW version "religions" meant a particular "vision" or "allegiance". That could either be "Restore the Han Dynasty" , "Daoist Revolution" or "A New Order".
    I was thinking about converting the papacy into an "inner imperial court" with the Pope being an attendant. That attendant could force the Emperor to start a campaign against a faction (Crusade).
    The 'imperial uncle' would be something to look more into.
    I carried the 'religion' use over into the mod here.
    The use of crusades is something I am not so keen about - more often then not it messes up game play. Particularly with multiple religions in use like here. I am going to put the requirement for 'imams' to max piety to avoid having having 'jihaads' as well. Else I am going to remove islam as a religion, although changing all the traits and ancs linked to that isn't something I am looking forward to.

    {catholic}Reestablish the Han Dynasty
    {heretic}Foreign Culture
    {islam}Pacification
    {orthodox}Fractionation
    {pagan}New Order
    {daoism}Daoism
    {revolution}Daoist Revolution










  9. #49
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    I moved the discussion about "The Imperial Uncle" - it deserved it's own thread.










  10. #50

    Default Re: Script ideas

    I don't know if it has already been proposed before, anyway here is mine. I was thinking to add a "marian reforms" like happening for the reestablishment of the han empire.

    It works like this, whenever a han reestablisher (like liu bei) has a certain amount of regions under his control and chang'an, there armies will reform.
    Now this idea is already know as far as i know. What is new about my idea is to add all feadered forest units (you know: archers, cavalry, infantry, spearmen, maybe even catapults with these guy's) to that faction with all the stronger ones of before or maybe the units of the regions the faction controls (if you are going to add the feature to "get the units of the regions" script or whatever it is called)

    So what do you think?
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    What's the basis of the reforms? Were there any military reforms, or anything similar to your suggestion, done during the era? While the Marian Reforms drastically changed the fighting style, organization, recruitment, equipment, and campaign scope of the Roman armies, I don't recall anything like that being done in or around the Three Kingdoms era. From what I understand, the armies of this era did not undergo any sort fundamental changes between the end of the Later Han and the Jin dynasty. What I'm saying is that the Marian Reforms were actual reforms that drastically reformed the military of Rome, whereas there was never anything even remotely similar during this era in China.
    Last edited by Seether; September 22, 2012 at 11:06 AM.
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Script ideas

    I also didn't meant it literally. With marian reforms, i wanted to show the changes for a certain faction when they become an "empire". I know this can also be done by other ways (like locking a certain unit in the barracks and when you conquer a certain region it will becomed recruitable).
    It is also not really historical. It was just an idea of mine.
    One of the three, a name split in two, one part is not here, the other is my account name.
    I am the beginning and end of all beings, of all life
    My breath is pure and live giving, Yin and yang were mine.
    The jade emperor was my apprentice, Now i am retired, leaving the rule of the world in his hands.

    Who am i?

    -Tianzong-

  13. #53
    Cronos Impera's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    I think you could include reforms to symbolize the incorporation of the non-Chinese tribes into the Empire.
    That way Cao Cao could access the Wuhan Horse-Archers, Liu Bei could access the Southern Barbarians and the Yellow Scarves better government equipment. But you could also create recruitment pools for that regions that include native troops.

    For Liu Bei - example

    Stage 1 (BaShu units - standard)
    Stage 2 (NanMan subjugation - NanMan units)
    Stage 3 (Integration - WuDangFei units)

    For Cao Cao
    Stage 1 (ZhongYuan standard units)
    Stage 2 (Wuhan horse-archers)
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  14. #54

    Default Re: Script ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    What's the basis of the reforms? Were there any military reforms, or anything similar to your suggestion, done during the era? While the Marian Reforms drastically changed the fighting style, organization, recruitment, equipment, and campaign scope of the Roman armies, I don't recall anything like that being done in or around the Three Kingdoms era. From what I understand, the armies of this era did not undergo any sort fundamental changes between the end of the Later Han and the Jin dynasty. What I'm saying is that the Marian Reforms were actual reforms that drastically reformed the military of Rome, whereas there was never anything even remotely similar during this era in China.

    Yes, I believe there technically were reforms. If you look at the novel it is one of the underpinning themes that is somewhat hidden in obscurity. What changes are that the armies go from being militia disorganized mobs whose confidence and will to fight were swayed fairly easily by one general or another getting tricked or defeated in battle or singular combat to a more organized system of military reform where advisors started to take the lead more over those who lead from the front and did a lot of the individual heroic fighting themselves. It is similar to what you see in the Homeric work about Troy to later Greek City states with more organized armies and orders of succession so that even if a leader is defeated he is replaced and the will of the army is not as easily broken. Strategy and training also take on more importance. In the earliest battles for example you see heroic figures with small armies. In the Yellow Turban rebellion, many of those armies are simple militia volunteers so little or no training if any at all and probably household weapons were the order of the day. At Changbang, a couple good fighting generals wreck havoc on a much larger force. Even scaring them with a deceptive ploy by Zhang Fei made the entire force turn around. This shows that while they were a larger force and probably more organized and trained than the volunteer phase they were still not exactly professional soldiers. Later after Chi Bi, you see several of Liu Bei's generals take small forces to capture vast territories in Jing. These may have actually been small well trained commando type elite troops or just trained troops as a precursor to later armies or just evidence that whatever trained professional troops Shu and other kingdoms had at this point were relatively small in number. Later you get to armies that do not easily break or buckle of a single leader has trouble during for example the invasion of Shu or even the armies of Jiang Wei when he tried to continue Zhuge's plan of invasion of Wei. This was a very strong feeling I got from reading the novel twice.

    It is probable and likely that the Han grew comfortable or weak or poor. Far from the days of Shi Quan Di, the army became smaller, perhaps do to no apparent threats or a weaker economy or weaker government. This would certainly explain how a cult rebel force became such a threat to the empire. If they had a decent sized professional standing army there would have been no rebellion, well not one that successful or really much of a need to call upon volunteers. So perhaps this was indicative of why it took so many years to reestablish a sense of a professional large standing army that Shi Quan Di created. Perhaps the smaller forces gave rise to a sense of heroism and individual valor in combat? At any rate it appears to me the armies grew from fairly small volunteer forces, to militias, to some elite troops, to mixed armies, to large professional armies with good strategies, training, weapons and technologies.

    Script Ideas:
    If you like this idea then it could be done with settlement development, hidden resources, and later upper tier units. You start out with Volunteer armies of modest or small size, then grow in size and gain the next level of troops, militias, and those grow in size from modest to large then you get some small elite units and mixed armies of militias and professionals and then finally small then large professional standing armies. Hidden resources might be a date, or after all yellow turbans or their remnants are defeated or after so many territories are owned or a settlement reaches a certain size.

    Zhuge Liang's Wooden Ox is invented. Kingdom gains a bonus to army supplies, moral, trade, or something like that.

    Elite or regional units unlocked:

    Bai Ma Heavy Cavalry, released if Liadong is held,
    Qingzhou Troops -Yellow Turban converts after a general of Yellow Turbans is defeated
    Wuge Rattan Armored troops if Naman is controlled
    Naman Elephants
    Naman wildmen - unarmored spear thrower infantry
    Xiliang Cavalry , either if Ma Teng, Ma Chao, or Han Sui are one of your officers or you hold Xiliang lands.
    Ying Shi Posui Ji - Camp Crushers of Gao Shun, (probably some kind of heavy archer and/or swordsmen archer unit)
    Jing Marines - if Jing is owned
    Jing Ships
    Dangyang Troops - Tao Qian and Liu Bei commanded them, Wu also probably had them.
    Qi Yi Spearmen - they can form shield walls, part of Yuan Shao's army
    Lu Bu's Imperial Corps Cavalry - heavy trident wielding or spear wielding horsemen
    Flying Army - Mounted bowmen of Shu Han, 1000 strong, commanded by Zhao Yun
    Ladies of Sun - all female bodyguard of Sun Shangxiang
    Tiger Cavalry - Cao Cao's bodyguard
    Leopard Cavalry - elite cavalry of Wei
    Ch'iang Tribesmen - one of the tribes south of Yi
    Ti Tribesmen - one of the tribes south of Yi
    Wu Huan Cavalry
    Wu Pirates
    Zhuge Crossbowmen - troops of Shu, Yi province
    Buqu - retainers of warlords
    Flying Cloud - one of the specialized large ships of Wu

    Yuan Shu trades the imperial seal for troops to Sun Ce.

    Xu Chu is lured away from Liu Bei's service by Cao Cao yet he does not take a office under Cao Cao.

    You could make general units small with more hit points to protect them and yet be able to use them somewhat.

    You could perhaps script something that makes Liu Bei move into Jing and take possession of a small territory there while allied to Liu Biao. This could be done if Liu Bei loses Xia Pi or if Lu Bu turns on Liu Bei. If Cao Cao moves a large army south or Liu Biao does the territory could be split into under each rival son if it is not under a player's control that is.

    Lu Su might make a better diplomat agent than a general.

    Jia Xu could be an ancillary or a spy. Unless you plan to have all characters be named as generals?
    Last edited by Cincinatus; November 20, 2012 at 07:37 PM.
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  15. #55
    Seether's Avatar RoTK Workhorse
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    Just on the comment about reforms, there really weren't any drastic reforms to military organization, deployment, arms and armor, tactics, or logistics during the Three Kingdoms era. From the beginning to the end, all of those things stay essentially the same. Now, you have some advancements, such as with the crossbow and ship design, however there were not any wide-spread or drastic military reforms during the era.

    Also keep in mind the military organization of the Later Han; the central government maintained two primary armies (Northern Army and Southern Army) and the provinces did not have any form of standing armies. The provinces only raised troops during times of national emergency. And what you see during the Yellow Turban rebellion is one such national emergency where the provincial governors were ordered by the central government to raise "militias" composed of levied and volunteered troops. But also remember that the Han government had their own standing army with which they fought the rebellion. Cao Cao, Chunyu Qiong, and Yuan Shao were three of the Xiaowei, or Captains, of the Northern Army, while generals such as Huangfu Song, Zhu Jun, and Lu Zhi were the primary commanders of the Han armies. Along with this, as the authority of the central government decayed, regional leaders began to maintain their own personal armies for survival sake; it was becoming survival of the fittest in the provinces. This wasn't a reform by any means, but merely a common-sense necessity of keeping a standing army around for protection and to project power. So it wasn't that armies went from a "disorganized militia" to an "organized system", as that simply wasn't the case, nor were there any sort of reforms to armies outside of time and natural progression.

    And, yes, we plan to have all of the important characters in-game as generals at the 194 start date. Some, like Ling Cao and Zhang Miao, I had to add because they were not in the original RTW mod. Although keep in mind that characters that were born well after the 194 start date, with a few exceptions, won't be included in the mod. And also remember that what a lot of people think of as "non-general" characters were in fact almost all military commanders as well. Lu Su, for example, was a lot more than a diplomat, administrator, and advisor. He was, after all, the "commander-in-chief" of Sun Quan after Zhou Yu died.
    Last edited by Seether; November 21, 2012 at 01:43 AM.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: Script ideas

    I got an idea for generals.

    I think that generals stats shpuld not be allowed to change much in the game. Maybe after 10 clear victories a leader will gain 1 star. I played the rome version and got gongsun zan better general than cao cao in few battles, not realistic. Since generals are given stats in all the rotk games by koei you could base ur historic generals stats off of this.

    Also i feel generals should be seperated into categories. Warrior, leader, strategist, and administrator
    warriors: high hp buffs medium command stars no administrative ability and tough bodyguard. Warriors are powerful units on feild usually with legionary eagle to rally troops. Also posses a special ability to increase troops combat or morale.
    Leaders: high command low to medium hp buff some administrative buffs bodyguard generally basic cavalry bodyguard. Leaders are versatile and generally will lead the army as main generals. Can hold up in combat too and serve as temporary governors of settlement
    strategist: very high command minus to hp foot based bodyguard good administrator. Strategists are great commanders best kept safetly guarded by other units or warrior type generals. Also are decent at governing settlements
    administrator: low command minus to hp weak foot based bodyguard superb governor. These generals give huge buffs to quell unrest and increase income in a settlement

    Really seperating officers roles will make player use officers effectively for best benefit. I would suggest making the cities somewhat difficult to get money and higher unrest unless an administrator general is present. Also locking generals in their traits and stats will avoid having a governor type officer like mi zhu being a 10 star general leading liu beis forces to battle and dominating.

  17. #57
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    That is an interesting idea - we will still have to see how all the traits work out as compared to the RTW version as several terms had to be replaced. After that we can get down to tweaking the effects to a more realistic level.










  18. #58
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    From what I have seen of characters and the trait system, when adding new characters, things are already somewhat as Gongsunzan suggested. Each character has a variety of stats and traits that make them unique, meaning that any particular character can be tweaked to fit a certain mold at the campaign start. The number of command stars a general has is, unlike most M2TW mods, not the primary influence on how "good" that general is; this is because of the intricate and symbiotic nature of the trait system inplace.

    However one thing I disagree with Gongsunzan on, is the suggestion that generals should not be able to change much during the game. The thing is, once the campaign starts the player is now completely rewritting history in almost all aspects. Why can't Mi Zhu become a great general if he fights in a lot of battles, wins a lot of battles, and gets the experience to become a great general? One of the major aspects of the TW series (or at least used to be) is that you could groom and develop your characters, which should be no different for this mod.
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  19. #59
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Script ideas

    I agree with the development of a character, after all it's 12 turn per year so it actually makes sense to nurture a character. I remember playing the original game and it was utter frustrating to have a great character only 30 turns before he died - here you can easily have 250 turns unless you send the man on suicide missions.










  20. #60

    Default Re: Script ideas

    The reason i said lock them is cause im imagining alot of generals so if u just have one good general you wont use the other ones. Also if you are using lu bu as a army commander he shouldnt be a good administrator too forcing you to bring along a strategist or govenor to help him manage the city he conquered. I could do a sub mod though after release as this is a personal preference for gameplay.

    Btw thanks alot for working on this mod im really anxious for its release

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