Motion capture and units in formation-bad idea?

[ray243]

One of my main complains with ETW before it was released was the use of motion capture. Motion capture looks great if you are depicting a duel in game. The problem with implementing it in a Total war game is that individual duels don't occur during a battle.

During a battle, you will see units actually pushing and shoving each other because there is little to no space to have a duel. Instead, what will happen is that you will often end up having 1 soldier fending off 3 soldiers for a few second, before his friend rush to help him. We should see more cases of soldiers killing off unsuspecting or distracted enemies.

I am worried to hear that CA is making use of motion capture in Rome II Total war.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Haven't you played STW2?

[katsusand]

Motion Capture doesn't necessarily mean 1v1 duels.

But I agree with you, ROME II shouldn't have 1v1 duels.

[He111]

The 1vs1 Duels in Shogun were horrible, even if they looked awesome, often single sword whielding Samurais fought off 200+ Ahsigaru for a few minutes. I really hope they cancel the duels in Rome, it was not common at all for packed organized formations to fight off in one on one. They would easily stab single Enemys to death if they had the chance.

[Shea O'Gorath]

Lusted already addressed this. He said they have changed it from 1 v 1 if i remember correctly

[katsusand]

Lusted already addressed this.

Where?

[denisvit]

Lusted already addressed this. He said they have changed it from 1 v 1 if i remember correctly

Awesome ... would be nice of a direct quote, but your word is probably good enough

[Lord Dakier]

The 1vs1 Duels in Shogun were horrible, even if they looked awesome, often single sword whielding Samurais fought off 200+ Ahsigaru for a few minutes. I really hope they cancel the duels in Rome, it was not common at all for packed organized formations to fight off in one on one. They would easily stab single Enemys to death if they had the chance.

Looks like we're going back to Rome 1 then where its 'you poke, I poke' combat mechanics. If you think Roman lines we're unbreakable and 1v1 engagements never happened then you need to go back and look through some history books.

In many scenarios units after the first charge erupted would end up in 1v1's until they regrouped where it became more organised once again.

[Shea O'Gorath]

Animations may have been 1v1 in Empire, Napoleon and Shogun 2 but the combat system was not. Multiple attackers were accounted for. Given the greater focus on formations in the Rome II period you can be assured that is something we are taking into account for the Rome II combat system.

I've highlighted for effect.

Its from this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post11667267

Awesome ... would be nice of a direct quote, but your word is probably good enough

Thank You. I always make good on my word.

[AgentGB]

I've highlighted for effect.

Its from this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...7#post11667267




Thank You. I always make good on my word.

It did originally put my concerns to rest, that the problem is being tackled, hope they they can do somthing about it, i would like to see stuff like "arms being lobbed off just when they go to preform the killing stroke, showing a comrade just managing to save a buddie in the nick of time, moments before his struck down instead from behind during a mass brawl when all cohesion is broken, and the fighting is at its dirtiest, guys being flipped over shields and run through and such.

Only thing that just recently renewed my concerns in this area, is a quote mentioned from the PC powerplay Mag that someone posted yesterday, before it obviously had to be taken down, other then that, the game is sounding great.

"Roman and Carthaginian soldiers split off into one-on-one duels that longer and better animated than those on shogun 2. When a killing blow is struck, it's because of smothing perceptible: a mistimed lunge or faulty footwork that suggest human error rather than unforgiving battle-maths"

I know they have increased the budget for motion capture, which is great, and with so many different types of formations, styles of fighting, its a pretty huge task in it self, but i do hope, they can go a bit futher then representing just 1v1 duels with it, and instead show 2v1, 2v2, 3v1 scenarios and so on, even to the point of seeing barbarians throwing axes mid combat into the back of a roman while his engaged with an opponent to the front when formations are broken and cohesion is lost. It really would complete the immersion along with everything that is being featured for battles, so im keeping my finger cross, im sure the game would look great even if 1v1 duel combat remained, but really would kinda like to see the chaos of battle when formation are broken and every man is fighting for his life doing there best to keep a 360 view of the battlefield situation within reason if they aren't engaged in single combat, and would instead seek to help a comrade win his duel. Hopefully motion capture and the game engine can allow for such combat, and they haven't been snookered by any limitations of the engine or the motion capture, even though the motion capture has greatly enhanced the ground level action.

[katsusand]

^ Jack Lusted's quote was somewhat ambiguous, he just said they are taking it into account.

[Shea O'Gorath]

^ Jack Lusted's quote was somewhat ambiguous, he just said they are taking it into account.

With the overhaul of the engine, it being Rome 2 and the overwhelming demand to fix 1v1 duels id speculate that it fairly high on the feature list.

[iWarsaw]

Finally a MOCAP thread!

I hope they make MOCAP a big part of the game. Some of the MOCAP will still be done as it was done in Shogun 2 where there are duels. They might try and make different animations depending on if soldiers are surrounding each other, if they are in guard mode in a formation. So lets say they aren't in formation or guard mode and just in a frenzy of melee something like this might happen...

A roman soldier comforts a Greek soldier. They swing at each others shields. A 2nd roman soldier runs to the back of the greek soldier cutting him in the back of the leg forcing him to his knees. Then he runs his sword into the shoulder/neck of the Greek soldier running his blade through his lung. That would look cool.

However if they are in guard mode in a square the animation might be something like....

A Greek soldier charges a Roman soldier, the Roman soldier keeping his shield in front of him charges the Greek soldier bashing him with the shield. Then the Roman soldier stabs over his shield into the head of the Greek soldier. (Or stabs around the side of his shield into the Greek's stomach)

In that scenario, the animation stays still it's just two soldier's stabbing at each other. It's simple and it keeps with the formation of the Roman soldiers holding their lines with erect shields. Both of the scenarios use MOCAP, but it different ways.

That's a lot of work to do though. They also have different nations with different weapons and tactics. So they'll probably just have a lot of scripted animations for in a phalanx and such, but then for duels they'll use MOCAP. It just has to be done fluidly.

One thing I do want to see return is people dying in MOCAP. I loved watching soldier's in Shogun 2 slowly die. It was so much fun! Don't be afraid of MOCAP people, it's a beautiful thing! I think ROME 2 has a lot of potential to really shine using MOCAP. I thought CA did a great job with the MOCAP in Shogun 2 so I can't wait for the MOCAP in Rome 2!

[Shocked]

Maybe they'll make the motion capture fights/deaths faster so its not as noticeable

[cevap]

Well multiple sites stated that CA has setup the largest mo-cap studio in Europe so 2v1, 3v1, 3v2 fights couldnt be completely out of the question

[universalmind]

If 1v1 are still present it will ruin this for me, regardless of how awesome everything may be.

[ray243]

Well multiple sites stated that CA has setup the largest mo-cap studio in Europe so 2v1, 3v1, 3v2 fights couldnt be completely out of the question

The issue is whether motion capture are designed to capture a mass melee. It is fairly easy to track a one on one duel because the camera can easily capture a clear fight between two person.

When there is a fight between 4 or more person, the camera will be confused with the action. There is no point making use of motion capture in such a scenario.

I fear that too much budget will go into motion capturing, a rather useless feature for depicting ancient battles.

[Rasic]

The issue is whether motion capture are designed to capture a mass melee. It is fairly easy to track a one on one duel because the camera can easily capture a clear fight between two person.

When there is a fight between 4 or more person, the camera will be confused with the action. There is no point making use of motion capture in such a scenario.

I fear that too much budget will go into motion capturing, a rather useless feature for depicting ancient battles.

You do realize a lot of the time motion capturing is less expensive than paying someone to do the animations by hand? It also speeds up the process a great deal and brings a more authentic feel to it. Motion capture isn't the culprit of the issues you are complaining about is what I'm trying to say. Its the mechanics of how it has been implemented in the game.

I've already went over it a few times in the other threads related to this but just a recap; it's not necessarily the 1 v 1 duels that make for the unrealistic look to the battlefield, it's the way that the units pair up in order to start these 1 v 1 animations. You saw in the early days of of Warscape with empire how the cavalry charging a unit running away the enemy soldiers would have to stop running in order to be paired up with the charging cavalry so the animation could play of them being cut down.

The solution for formation heavy combat is to make the animations distance based and quick without the soldier actually leaving his spot in the formation to pair up with a soldier from the enemy formation. I think that is actually what jack was trying to say when quoted above, not that there wouldn't be 1v1 animations.

For loose combat or when the formation has been broken up there needs to be 1 v 2 and 2 v 1 animations so it's not just one guy fighting one guy all the time. That is the chief problem that makes the fighting so artificial looking currently is you have a bunch of guys who aren't paired up just standing around waiting to kill someone.

[ironbrigade]

One of my main complains with ETW before it was released was the use of motion capture. Motion capture looks great if you are depicting a duel in game. The problem with implementing it in a Total war game is that individual duels don't occur during a battle.

During a battle, you will see units actually pushing and shoving each other because there is little to no space to have a duel. Instead, what will happen is that you will often end up having 1 soldier fending off 3 soldiers for a few second, before his friend rush to help him. We should see more cases of soldiers killing off unsuspecting or distracted enemies.

I am worried to hear that CA is making use of motion capture in Rome II Total war.

I agree 100%.