TATW Realism+ /Final/ [TATW 3.2]

[DaVinci]

Nice to hear that

But, now i recently playtested Gondor ... and what happened with Gondor AoR (Dale/Rhovanion) units from Pelenor (the coastal city) vs. few Harad invaders? In the moment the enemy routs, the battle crashed (message: unspecific error) ... first time that it occurs for me that a battle crashed when the enemy routs. Formerly i had a battle with Mordor invaders with Gondor standard units (no AoR's), no crash, everything normal.
No question, that made me nervous

I went into the edu file, and checked the added AoR units (again), i ammended some codes for these added merc units (officer line completely disabled and ownership things). Afterwards played a custom battle test successful with one AoR unit (Beorning, temporarily enabled for custom battle) vs. one Harad unit until they routed. And then also Gondor campaign again, i had then a similar battle situation with the same AoR units from above vs. Harad invader units, and then what happened? Stable battle ... no crash this time when the enemy routs ... so there is a chance that possibly certain edu codes can provoke battle crashes if merc units (added AoR) participate, and if so, i might have solved that now (and Aringtoit, if this what i experienced with Gondor's battle crash wasn't simply bad luck, then your battle-crash reports did have a positive purpose! And maybe it has also a positive affect regarding Paul Atreides' battle-crash reports due to Gondor reinforcement battles).

However, i'll upload v1.99 in a moment, which requires a new campaign start (as for other startsetting changes).

[DaVinci]

V 1.99 uploaded.

Please report about any crash issues, campaign and battle, criteria: Faction/enemy faction in-battle, units and characters (mention generals participation), turn and situation, message, reloadable, repeating.

[Aringtoit]

So I wasn't going nuts!

Turns out I spoke too soon. I got battle crashes later on in the campaign (against the rebels outside of Fornost and the OoG while sieging Aithlin). Both times it crashed when most of their armies were routing. Aithlin involved reinforcing orc armies though so that might not count.

I'll try 1.99 when I can and let you know what happens.

[DaVinci]

Btw., one of my last Gondor 1.99 campaign battle-tests included enemy reinforcements (Mordor) and both enemy armies routed, and it didn't crash.

---

I beg everybody who plays version 1.99 (not 1.98 anymore) to report about their experiences, if crashes occur or not, after the above mentioned criteria post #95, and requirement is v1.99 new campaign-start, and not a single custom change.

I need as much reports as possible.

[Aringtoit]

Still getting crashes with 1.99 as Eriador. Had one at Barrow Downs again and one with the rebs outside of Fornost. Outside of Fornost there were no characters, just an "adopted" General, Dale swordsman, 1 unit of Peasant Spearmen, 1 unit of Armored Spearmen, 1 unit of Rangers, 1 unit of Ithilien Rangers and 1 unit of Heavy Merchant cav. This time it crashed before the enemy started routing. These are the only 2 battles I've fought so far. Going to try to install it again and see if that helps.

Hate to keep giving you bad news, but this is a good mod. Hope everything works out with it.

[Aringtoit]

Hold off on my last post DaVinci. It might have been a bad install. Going to reinstall it again.

[Aringtoit]

Reinstalled and still getting routing enemy crashes. This time Barrow Downs again. Units--Gandalf, Halbarad, 1 unit Dwarven Warriors, 1 unit Greenway Guards, 1 unit Spearman, 2 units Armored Spearmen, 1 unit Rangers, 1 unit Ithilien Rangers, 1 Unit Elven Archers, 1 unit Bandobros Archers, 1 unit Heavy Militia cav.

[DaVinci]

Did you see this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=560193 about custom settlements? (Barrow Downs is a custom settlement, an Orc Camp).

However, next time, try the following as comparison: Attack Barrow Downs only with standard Eriador units, this is without the added ZoR units, use only Bree Militia, Woodland Hunter, Lumbermen, Greenway Guards, Heavy Militia (Merchants) etc., which did exist before i added Eriador's ZoR/AoR units. You can also differentiate with characters, ie. Aragorn has its original TATW vanilla bodyguards, Gandalf and Halbarad not.

This is my suggestion ... try that separate, not additionally the geography file removal along the above linked thread, but eventually afterwards, if the standard units deliver the same result.
Edit: 2nd suggestion, test TATW 3.2 vanilla, Eriador, go for Barrow Downs after that mission comes, compare what happens, report.



EDIT

Some apparent facts again (after your recent posts):
- It seems, routing enemies provoke battle crashes (what is actually strange, and perhaps unique for this submod? And apparently a new item since more recent submod versions?).
- We found out that by me added/changed battle-related traits have no impact in that regard (crash or no), as you reported battle-crashes with and without those traits changed contents.
- Along your battle experience, my recent edu unit code changes (with 1.99) for the added/enabled ZoR/AoR units have no affect on battle-crashes, they happen anyway for you (remark: this, although my personal battle testing delivered successful battle experiences after my edu file changes, in direct comparison, but still, it can be a random item).

In general (TATW 3.2 vanilla):
- We have anyway the fact that the RBAI content in TATW has the 50 % option to provoke battle crashes under certain circumstances: the reinforcement bug (but other than that, RBAI is known to be stable).
- The TATW vanilla bugreport thread delivers battle-crash reports, different reasons it seems, ie. some have reported that double-clicking on area while the battle runs caused a crash (iirc., this happened also in my case, rarely, but already with TATW vanilla and my very first submod versions, thus common valid battle problems do exist).

Options (which i see atm. regarding TATW Realism+ submod):
- It is possible, that the by me added/enabled ZoR/AoR units have the affect to provoke campaign battle crashes (if this is so, then those added/enabled ZoR/AoR units must be disabled by me). This, although they don't crash in custom battles (indicates normally, that they have no potential for battle crashes).
- It is possible (rather evident), that TATW battles crash regardless of by me added units, ie. due to the custom settlements content (if this is so, then the above linked advice should be tried, geography file removal, backup those files though).

Under the line:
- Only very few players of this submod report about battle crashes. Experiences in this regard are obviously pretty different, perhaps even different per chosen faction.
- Apparently, the battle crashes started first since i added/enabled the ZoR/AoR units for the campaign.
- We know nothing with certainty

--

More reports? Anybody?

[DaVinci]

Aringtoit: Another ZoR/AoR unit test, Eriador

Here is a temporary special* edu file attached to testing for you as Eriador player, which is save game compatible, but please apply that for Barrow Downs anew in comparison, and recruit the usual units you have used, especially the Aux units Armored Spear, Peasant Spear and Peasant Archer, but you can also only use the initial available Armored Spearmen of these Aux units.

I have tested that just successful, first in custom battle applying solely the said units above (1 Armored Spear, 1 Peasant Spear and 1 Peasant Archer) vs. 2 OoG units, they routed, no crash, no issue; and then also in campaign, here only the Armored Spearmen (3 of them) with a couple of other Eriador units, incl. Gandalf and Halbarad and other standard Eriador units but ie. not the special allies (Elven A., Ithilen R., Dwarven, Bandoras A.) - battle fought, rebel orcs routed, Barrow Downs was taken, no crash, no issues.

* difference to 1.99 edu file is only a changed ownership entry for those Eriador Aux units.

My goal is to find out (making sure), if edu ownership entries make any difference for added campaign units with mercenary attribute regarding battle-crash experiences, for users who experience them still.


Attachment removed (obsolete).

[Aringtoit]

I'll test it as soon as I can and let you know what happens.

Thanks.

[Aringtoit]

Sorry it took so long. Was in meetings.

Turn 45 as Eriador with 1.99 and new edu file above and no crashes. Looking good!

[Heptagenia]

Play 1.99 as Eriador. Play with orginal EDU file. no problem with Barrow Downs. /Hep

[Emrys]

Full campaign of Gondor, Mordor, Harad, and Dale all work fine with latest version

[DaVinci]

Thanks a lot guys for the playtesting, according to my own initial tests and your reports, seems battle crashes are past as well now, except possibly some random occurences which are not due to the submod files.
(Btw., i'll extend the credits for battle playtesting accordingly).

However, i wanna make the edu file thing sure before i create/release v2.0.
I attach another slight changed edu file (save compatible, it has no stats changes, but only formal code changes for the added AoR units), which will go into 2.0, if it remains that nobody reports a battle crash.



Attachment removed, obsolete.

[skullripper]

i attacked barrow downs with 2 breeland militia, 1 lumbermen and 2 woodland hunters, and i ran out of arrows so i sent my archers in the fight and the game crashed

[Heptagenia]

Play Eriador and i take North Tharband, later Isengard try to take back North Tharband and Isengard routing i got CTD./ Hep excuse my bad english

Edit try with the new EDU same problem then Isengard routing i got CTD

Edit maybe it has to Elven A., Ithilen R to do, i also sent Elven A., Ithilen in to fight and the game crash.

[DaVinci]

Well ok, skullripper's report is new evidence that the battle crashes have nothing to do with by me added AoR units or with any other changes with this submod (ie. character battle-related traits), as he got it with standard Eriador units, which have simply only normal stats changes compared to TATW vanilla, and if there were a mistake, the game or latest campaign battle mode couldn't fire at all or any custom battles would crash with those units used, which is not the case, not at all.

Also i had the thought that it could have to do with the RBAI content (which is unchanged by me) in combi with my submod unit changes, if this script part is in concrete dependence of TATW's vanilla units content - even so, his report shows, there is no relation.

Other than that, there would have been the option that new edu unit entries would overfill the max unit count for the file aka the game - this cannot be as well, because other submods add much, much more units to the mod.

So actually i have no clue what the cause of those battle crashes could be, ie. if it is the moment when AI routs, could have been an indication for such parts like RBAI, that the script cannot work out certain situations for new/added units, but as said, skullripper delivered the evidence, it is not the case, no relation, when battles crash with TATW vanilla standard units and submod added units alike - it would rather indicate the engine or RBAI script cannot workout the momentum of AI routing, on the other side, i myself have nearly 100 % battle cases, that the AI routs sooner or later, and have had no crashes.

The only thing, which comes to my mind still and now, if it has something to do with any kind of unit changes by me - it could be here still unit names changes (ie. i changed Bree Militia names) - it is the trial to remove the file mods/Third_Age_3/data/text/export_units.txt.strings.bin in this regard, if this can have an impact on battle outcome for the engine aka here ie. the RBAI content, but i doubt it a lot (would be a new experience for TW games overall, and if RBAI, then every submod which changes any kind of unit content would have to do a customisation of the RBAI content, i haven't heard about that anywhere).
However, the file export_units.txt.strings.bin will be generated anew if deleted when the game is fired, so you can do it any time as trial.

Else, i did not at all any map changes which could have an impact on certain battle locations (ie. mentioned was Barrow Downs, now Tharbad), just in case those crashes happen only in certain areas of the map, there is no relation with this submod done by me.

Edit maybe it has to Elven A., Ithilen R to do,

Nope - all such units, the by me added AoR units have the same kind of code, and we have evidence, they are not the culprit - also the unit models are the same as the standard ones. I myself used those units x-times, and enemy AI routed, i got no crashes.

These battle crashes, and if it happens only when AI routs, is after all your reports and my personal tests, a random event, and we had it with different kinds of edu formal codes for those added AoR units (ie. the different ownership changes by me, they didn't have an impact).
And obviously, it has also nothing to do with the reinforcement-bug of RBAI.

EDIT

and i ran out of arrows so i sent my archers in the fight and the game crashed

i also sent Elven A., Ithilen in to fight and the game crash.

... indicates, the arrows ran out, player sends those archers into melee, and battle crashes - and this happens unrelated to by submod added units (see skullripper got the same result with Eriador standard units). Earlier, Aringtoit reported, the battle crashes when he sent a general into melee, enemy routs and the battle crashes. My impression is still, it has to do with the AI routing-moment, and not with certain units, and if it would be the latter, ie. archers ran out of arrows and go into melee, then the animation of those units would be bugged somehow, which would cause a crash - i can't imagine this, also because i myself used archer units a lot also in melee after arrows ran out, really very often, standard TATW and by submod added ones, without any issues.

---
Under the line, i have no clue for the culprit

---
EDIT

We could try to get a statistic for such battle-crashes, ie. with the help as following, a list in this order:

Headline: Campaign Battle Crashes (and/or Custom Battle Crashes)
Submod Version:
Turn:
Faction vs. Faction AI:
Units Player vs. Units AI:
Battle Location:
Moment of Crash:
Further Description: like repetitive/repeatable (happens always, or randomly), AI reinforcements involved or not and such.
Plus Hint: ie. had have similar or other battles which ran fine without any issues, although AI routs or whatsoever.
Additional Info: ie. had have such similar battles with TATW vanilla and/or other submods, and no battle crash issues happened, means, happens only with this submod here.

... just to get a firm overview-result.
For any further battle-crash experiences, please use this form, and if possible, try to remind the earlier experiences within this form above as well.

---.---

Edit: And to make 100% sure, that it has nothing to do with by submod added units, i can create pretty fast an alternative version, which consists only of TATW vanilla unit recruitment. I'll attach such a version, let's see if this makes a difference.

[Heptagenia]

Play Eriador and i take North Tharband, later Isengard try to take back North Tharband and Isengard routing i got CTD./ Hep excuse my bad english

Edit try with the new EDU same problem then Isengard routing i got CTD

Edit maybe it has to Elven A., Ithilen R to do, i also sent Elven A., Ithilen R in to fight and the game crash.

try so many times and always got ctd, but only when I not sent Elven A., Ithilen R in to fight, no ctd,
I actually think the problem is Ithilen R.

[DaVinci]

If I made it through that, the game wouldn't crash. I know nothing about modding, but maybe the changes you made somehow effect the game when the enemy general is killed/captured.

Hm, no, can't imagine this. Also i personally have several battles where the AI general is killed and battle runs further without a crash. If there were something related, it would be a common valid item. And well, that could be possible indeed ie. via the traits file (ie. all TW traits files have something like pre-battle and post-battle related traits, which count certain outcomes), but therefor i asked/tested the changed battle related traits file, and our result was that there is no relation (we applied the mod with and without those special changes by me), and also i have not changed those pre-battle and post-battle related traits which count losses and such.
However, if the new test delivers nothing new, we can try anew the submod without the changed traits file, no problem.

I saw Saruman walking around though!

Yes, comicably the immobile traits code works only to some certain extension, the according characters still can walk a little, a little actually, means their movement points are limited a lot, better than no impact.

---

try so many times and always got ctd, but only when I not sent Elven A., Ithilen R in to fight, no ctd,
I actually think the problem is Ithilen R.

We will see, those units mentioned are added AoR units.

---

Alright guys, i'm glad you are concerned with the battle crash item aka have interest to fix the thing.

I'm pretty certain it has nothing to do with any added units to the mod, but to make that sure, i have here a version attached, with

a. no recruitment of any added AoR units (via tech-tree or other call that building-tree)
b. no added merc pool units (merc file)
c. no added AoR units in ds (= descr_strat, which is the start situation file).
plus Halbarad has the same bg as Aragorn (vanilla Grey Company bodyguards).
...else, it is the same as v1.99.

(it is a zipped mods folder)

There are still some unit additions active with ds, those are certain bodyguard units ie. for Elven factions and Eriador, but, actually those changed bg things cannot be the culprit for our battle crashes, also we have now multiple reports where such generals with those bg's have no participation, so i'm sure they are not a problem.

Hint: Playing ie. Eriador is much harder without the AoR units.

If somebody applies the attachment, then start the campaign anew, it is not saved game compatible.

Installation: You have to unzip, and then overwrite the mods folder within the main M2 directory, aka same process as always with this submod.


Attachment removed, version test obsolete.

[Heptagenia]

try so many times and always got ctd, but only when I not sent Elven A., Ithilen R in to fight, no ctd,
I actually think the problem is Ithilen R.

Another thing was that I was sure that an enemy group routs at a time.