TATW Realism+ /Final/ [TATW 3.2]

[Emrys]

I just played through Gondor w/ new file. After speeding/autowinning through the turns no crashes even after turn 150

[MrExpendable]

This submod is getting along nicely, but I got some things to report regarding unit balance. I'm testing units in custom battles, and tweaking them along the way to my own insights.

Fountain Guard:
Get lock_morale attribute and their unit size is 80. They seem to be either OP or underpriced. My personal tweak: removed lock_morale and changing their unit size to 48.

Dismounted Swan Knights:
Come at a size of 60, while being just a little bit more expensive then Gondor Infantry. Their stats are a bit too high for that, I think. My personal tweak: Changed their size to 48.

Dismounted Dunedain Knights:
Stats are worse in comparison to Gondor infantry, while coming at a higher cost and smaller unit size. My personal tweak: Same stats as Dismounted Swan Knights, plus the possibility to upgrade armour +1.

I'm careful with adding lock_morale to units, as I don't really know how to rebalance prices accordingly. Since units with lock_morale are many times more dangerous, they should also come at a higher cost. But having some of the elite units have locked morale may be a nice option. I think that especially elite Dwarf/Eldar/Sindarin/Dunedain units should have locked morale.

That was all.

[DaVinci]

I just played through Gondor w/ new file. After speeding/autowinning through the turns no crashes even after turn 150

That was with 1.97 plus the missions fix file applied, right? Good, strenghens my assumption that the whole crash-bug was solely due to the missions file.

This submod is getting along nicely, but I got some things to report regarding unit balance. I'm testing units in custom battles, and tweaking them along the way to my own insights.

Fountain Guard:
Get lock_morale attribute and their unit size is 80. They seem to be either OP or underpriced. My personal tweak: removed lock_morale and changing their unit size to 48.

Dismounted Swan Knights:
Come at a size of 60, while being just a little bit more expensive then Gondor Infantry. Their stats are a bit too high for that, I think. My personal tweak: Changed their size to 48.

Dismounted Dunedain Knights:
Stats are worse in comparison to Gondor infantry, while coming at a higher cost and smaller unit size. My personal tweak: Same stats as Dismounted Swan Knights, plus the possibility to upgrade armour +1.

I'm careful with adding lock_morale to units, as I don't really know how to rebalance prices accordingly. Since units with lock_morale are many times more dangerous, they should also come at a higher cost. But having some of the elite units have locked morale may be a nice option. I think that especially elite Dwarf/Eldar/Sindarin/Dunedain units should have locked morale.

That was all.

Well, custom battles as unit balancing area is a basis test field to observe the very basic capabilities of a certain unit or units, campaign battles otherwise come along with a lot of different parameters, this is mere two worlds. I always balance the whole thing (the whole picture along the mod design), this is of course including unit stats but with the background of my campaign goals as main direction-giver. I'll look into the Dismounted Dunedain Knights though being more worse than Gondor Inf, that should be tweaked indeed.
Look, i assume you are a Gondor player, from this perspective it makes sense to tweak units along your insights, otherwise (if not a dedicated Gondor player) the AI campaign outcome is decisive for a campaign mod with the announced design goals. What you do then with such unit tweaks is similar to faction-mod design, where just the human player plays solely that said faction, and in this sense the reference faction is here mere Eriador/Arnor with option of Reunited Kingdom (ie. the ZoR/AoR of Rohan and Gondor units and other ones). Btw., you (and every other one who like this submod) are free to make your own sub-submods as you fit and release them, but then i would wait until i say it is final ( it's not long to that stand, as i plan to ending the TATW Realism+ modding with v2.0 ).

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I'll update to 1.98 today, the fixed missions file thing with very small other changes only.

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V 1.98 is uploaded.

[MrExpendable]

That was with 1.97 plus the missions fix file applied, right? Good, strenghens my assumption that the whole crash-bug was solely due to the missions file.



Well, custom battles as unit balancing area is a basis test field to observe the very basic capabilities of a certain unit or units, campaign battles otherwise come along with a lot of different parameters, this is mere two worlds. I always balance the whole thing (the whole picture along the mod design), this is of course including unit stats but with the background of my campaign goals as main direction-giver. I'll look into the Dismounted Dunedain Knights though being more worse than Gondor Inf, that should be tweaked indeed.
Look, i assume you are a Gondor player, from this perspective it makes sense to tweak units along your insights, otherwise (if not a dedicated Gondor player) the AI campaign outcome is decisive for a campaign mod with the announced design goals. What you do then with such unit tweaks is similar to faction-mod design, where just the human player plays solely that said faction, and in this sense the reference faction is here mere Eriador/Arnor with option of Reunited Kingdom (ie. the ZoR/AoR of Rohan and Gondor units and other ones). Btw., you (and every other one who like this submod) are free to make your own sub-submods as you fit and release them, but then i would wait until i say it is final ( it's not long to that stand, as i plan to ending the TATW Realism+ modding with v2.0 ).

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I'll update to 1.98 today, the fixed missions file thing with very small other changes only.

---
V 1.98 is uploaded.

I do play Gondor the most often in TATW. The changes I made for some of the units were mostly focused around custom battles. I could see if I can change some of the unit costs to be better balanced for custom battles (I like playing them, as well as MP). Then I could release it as a sub-submod. That way, the campaign mechanics would still be the same. Thanks for making this stuff free to re-use for any other modders btw.

I'm going to try the new version, this time actually playing more then a few turns in the campaign with some of the good factions.

[Aringtoit]

The missions file fixed the problem with my 1.97 SE campaign. No more crashes and I played till turn 88.

Started an Eriador campaign though and got an in battle crash while fighting my 1st battle (taking the Barrow Downs). Happened twice in a row. Seems to happen when either Gandalf engages or one of the generals I have with the army engages. I only made one change and that was increasing Dismounted Dunedain's stats to match Dismounted Swan Knight's stats as per Mr Expendable's post above. From the posts, I seem to be the only one having this problem though so it could be just me.

FYI-"And you, Aringtoit have reported as of yet solely the typical autosave-process crash"

Think you misunderstood. I was saying that after it crashed normally, I went to Autosave and resumed the game at the point where it crashed without it crashing again for a number of turns. Being able to continue from the point where it crashed using autosave saved the problem from being a game stopper. This was before the missions file fix which took care of the crashes for the SE.

Going to try to fight that battle again and see if it crashes again. I'll let you know. 1st time I've gotten an in battle crash with your mod without there being a relieving army involved. It's an "unspecified error" crash btw. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[DaVinci]

The missions file fixed the problem with my 1.97 SE campaign. No more crashes and I played till turn 88.

Started an Eriador campaign though and got an in battle crash while fighting my 1st battle (taking the Barrow Downs). Happened twice in a row. Seems to happen when either Gandalf engages or one of the generals I have with the army engages. I only made one change and that was increasing Dismounted Dunedain's stats to match Dismounted Swan Knight's stats as per Mr Expendable's post above. From the posts, I seem to be the only one having this problem though so it could be just me.

FYI-"And you, Aringtoit have reported as of yet solely the typical autosave-process crash"

Think you misunderstood. I was saying that after it crashed normally, I went to Autosave and resumed the game at the point where it crashed without it crashing again for a number of turns. Being able to continue from the point where it crashed using autosave saved the problem from being a game stopper. This was before the missions file fix which took care of the crashes for the SE.

Going to try to fight that battle again and see if it crashes again. I'll let you know. 1st time I've gotten an in battle crash with your mod without there being a relieving army involved. It's an "unspecified error" crash btw. I'll let you know how it turns out.

The campaign-crashes are past with v1.98, and i strongly think for all factions, as the missions file is faction-free. I continued an Eriador campaign until turn 70 and bit higher (played pretty neutrally to observe stability and AI outcome), no issues.

As mainly Eriador player i battled there x-times without ever having issues ... atm. i can't see any source for your battle-crash, as there are no changes done for a while for Gandalf or his bg's or other Eriador bg's, except Halbarad, but i played battles afterwards and had have no issues. If a certain unit is possibly a culprit, then you can also try them via custom battle, iirc. all those Eriador units are accessable via custom battle incl. added bg's. The according rebel units are not touched at all by me. So what is left here would be perhaps character traits regarding battles. This said, i'll then as well playtest Eriador again as next campaign (last time playtests, see above, i autocalced), and going quick for Barrow Downs, which is usually the first mission, while the in-battle crash normally can't have to do with the missions file (and i really doubt that the missions file can still provoke a crash), quicker goes an in-battle-test with Gandalf and whomever vs. Bandits which are hidden in forest-pieces at roads, one is between Breeland and Shire, pretty close to Bree ... use your spy. However, i never had issues there.

[DaVinci]

Double-post, upps. Next one is the according post.

[DaVinci]

V 1.98, Eriador battle playtest 1 (as for Aringtoit's Eriador/Barrow Downs in-battle crash report).

Get mission Barrow Downs in the 1st end_turn.

I take Gandalf and his 3 allied archer units (Ithilien Ranger, Elven Sentinel and Bandoras Hobbit) plus Halbarad (Grey Company bg) from Staddle to engage the close-by Bree Bandits band, formerly discovered via spy. I attack. Battle runs issue-free, everything normal, all units were engaged.

Afterwards i take (in the meantime partly armour upgraded) units from Bree: Woodland Archer, Lumbermen, Greenway Guards plus Bree Archer from Staddle and Gandalf and Halbarad to engage vs. Barrow-Downs. I siege them until they sally out which is the 2nd turn after siege. Battle runs issue-free, everything normal, all units were engaged.
Getting the successful-mission message and the unit reward into Bree, which is one Greenway Guard unit.

No battle issues in sight.

Aringtoit, if your in-battle crash remains, please list exactly your units. I take every crash-report serious (and will help where i can, ie. possibly a file change on your side is the culprit), and just in case, please use v1.98, not v1.97 incl. temp fix (although that should work as well). And there is no need to edit the Dismounted Dunedain Knight unit, it's done with v1.98.

Edit

Going to try to fight that battle again and see if it crashes again. I'll let you know. 1st time I've gotten an in battle crash with your mod without there being a relieving army involved. It's an "unspecified error" crash btw. I'll let you know how it turns out.

By chance, did the Barrow Downs Orc Looter garrison get reinforcements from the nearby (hidden) Orc Looters? Perhaps you suffered from the very seldom reinforcement-battle-bug?

[Aringtoit]

Crashed at Barrow Downs again (1.97). Was just testing Eriador (which is my favorite faction) so I took a big force with me (Gandalf, "Merchant" cav, 3 spearmen, Rangers, Woodland Hunters, SE Sentinals, Dwarves and Greenway Guards). Sieged it also, battle ran fine when they attacked until I started getting the upper hand and then crashed. So far I've tried it with and without Gandalf and with and without Araphor (who has a Grey Company). Crashed regardless of the combination. No orc reinforcing army was involved.

Going to try 1.98 and I'll let you know what happens.

[DaVinci]

Crashed at Barrow Downs again (1.97). Was just testing Eriador (which is my favorite faction) so I took a big force with me (Gandalf, "Merchant" cav, 3 spearmen, Rangers, Woodland Hunters, SE Sentinals, Dwarves and Greenway Guards). Sieged it also, battle ran fine when they attacked until I started getting the upper hand and then crashed. So far I've tried it with and without Gandalf and with and without Araphor (who has a Grey Company). Crashed regardless of the combination. No orc reinforcing army was involved.

Going to try 1.98 and I'll let you know what happens.

You seem to have a messed up file setup in your v1.97. Araphor can't have Grey Company bg coming with my files of v1.97, he has Greenway Guards mounted, Halbarad is the one with Grey Company bg, besides Aragorn, see also changelog. (bg = bodyguards)

When you are going to install v1.98, perhaps it is advised to first overwrite with the TATW vanilla Backup of 1st post (look accurately what's to do when overwriting, not that you paste files into the wrong folder/s* ... as my submod always overwrites files, the question "overwrite?" must always pop), run that and check out if it works normal as TATW 3.2 vanilla (which you know, i assume) - and first then, install v1.98. The proper installation of 1.98 should solve your issues.

*If something like that happens, then at best, deinstall TATW completely, and reinstall it completely, this is the main setup for TATW 3.0 and the setup for TATW 3.2 patch (3.2 patch includes 3.1 patch).
It makes also sense, when installing a M2TW mod to check out first, if M2/Kingdoms runs normal.

[Paul Atreides]

Having played full campaigns with OoG, OotMM, Isengard without any CTDs my campaigns with Harad and Mordor have come to screeching halt - almost every battle with Gondor CTDs on the loading screen, especially when facing 2 or more Gondor stacks. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem to happen with militia level troops.

[Paul Atreides]

Growth rates for the cities in 1.98 seem a little...excessive. On turn 70 Dol Amroth had 75 000 inhabitants. Regarding my previous observation regarding the CTDs, I managed to fight a battle against a Gondor spawn-stack normally. I would assume that the CTDs are connected to reinforcements somehow.

[DaVinci]

Growth rates for the cities in 1.98 seem a little...excessive. On turn 70 Dol Amroth had 75 000 inhabitants. Regarding my previous observation regarding the CTDs, I managed to fight a battle against a Gondor spawn-stack normally. I would assume that the CTDs are connected to reinforcements somehow.

Pop-growth: Thanks for that observation. That shall get a review, possibly the pop-growth provides also a lot of unrest for the AI, either i'll add law-bonusses for AI or drive back growth-rates ie. for bigger settlements or both.

Battles: Then it might be the known reinforcement-bug happening with the RBAI content. But you could also try to list the units used by Gondor, ie. those which are added to their roster with this submod (because most Gondor units are just the same as with TATW 3.2 vanilla).

[Aringtoit]

I got the general's names confused DaVinci.

Installed 1.98 and same thing--crash about halfway through during Barrow Downs battle as Eriador. Installed 1.80 and no problems. Maybe it's one of the units added since 1.80. Actually, everything up to 1.94 I think worked fine for me.

[DaVinci]

I got the general's names confused DaVinci.

Installed 1.98 and same thing--crash about halfway through during Barrow Downs battle as Eriador. Installed 1.80 and no problems. Maybe it's one of the units added since 1.80. Actually, everything up to 1.94 I think worked fine for me.

But this is very strange, as you can see above from my post battle-test 1, i have no issues there. Please list again the exact used unit names from your battle-experience of Barrow Downs, so that i can replay that 1:1.
Edit: ... and i have the question, what happens if you fight Rebels/Bandits (the hidden ones) with the same kind of force which you are using for Barrow Downs?
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I'll also check added units via custom battle, as said they must cause a crash as well there, if they are not functionable for the battle mode.

[DaVinci]

Eriador, custom battle test

...with solely added units (Grey Company bg, Greenway Guards bg (horse), Greenway Guards bg (foot), Armored Spearmen, Peasant Spearmen) for Eriador's recruitment roster.

...vs. Gundabad Orc/Rhudaur units.

Result: No issue, nothing.

As all such added units (which are clones of existing ones) have the same kind of code per type of unit (ie. merc or not merc type), they can't be the reason for battle-crashes, also not for the campaign battle mode.

Aringtoit, as dedicated SE player, you have certainly used added units such like the Beorning and possibly also the Dale Longbowmen and Dwarven Warriors (all those are clones of existing mercenary unit entries with changed ownerships, for certain recruitment rosters), is that right? And you got no battle-crash with them, as you reported above: no battle-crashes with SE. Those units have the same kind of code, and used as ZoR/AoR units for several good side factions for the campaign.

What's left is possibly since v1.80 added battle-related traits, although they fire as well for SE characters.

Aringtoit, it actually confuses me, that 1.98 Eriador battle crashes for you but not v1.80.
I'll upload a traits file from a pre-1.95 stand, and beg you to test 1.98 once again (without any custom change!) with this traits file overwritten, you must start Eriador anew for this test-purpose, and fight again Barrow Downs in the same way which crashed for you. I'll attach the traits file to this post.

Done, it's traits file from v1.9.

And maybe there are other Eriador players out there with v1.98? If yes, please report about the Barrow Downs capture, with pure v1.98 applied.


Edit: Attachment removed, case obsolete.

[Aringtoit]

I downloaded it and I'll test it as soon as I can.

FYI--I started the Eriador campaign as I always do--take out the rebels to the west of Bree with Aragorn's unit alone. No crash. Haven't tried to fight a battle as Eriador after the Barrow Downs crash, so have no idea whether it's just related to Barrow Downs or not. I have no problem with custom battles btw.

[Aringtoit]

OK, correction--just did a custom battle with 1.98 plus the new traits file. It crashed. Same with the Barrow Downs during new campaign I started with new traits file. Seems like it crashes just as the orcs are starting to break/rout in both custom and the campaign. Again--this didn't happen until about version 1.95.

Hope this helps. It's a damn good mod.

[DaVinci]

Good god ... this is becoming more and more strange. I can't recreate your experiences.

- Fact is, when i play 1.98 (and every earlier version) Eriador and go for Barrow Downs, and also in my case the rebel Orc force routs, it doesn't crash.
Question? Do you stop then, when the battle-victory message appears? Or do you kill them all? (I stop such battles when the victory message appears).
Edit: What you can test as well, take the same force (or similar), and go for another settlement as Barrow Downs held by rebels.

- Custom battle Eriador faction, which units are used now, same as with Barrow Downs?
Btw., the traits file has nothing to do there, doesn't fire for custom battles.

- Do you have the same experience now with other factions in custom battles, or only Eriador?

- Ok, so we know the culprit for your Barrow Downs experience has nothing to do with post-v1.90 traits file, that is important for me, so i know the current traits file battle-related changes are fully okay, as your Barrow Downs experience is the same with and without the last traits file stand.


Common question: What's the base you are using? Is it TATW 3.0 plus TATW 3.2 patch?
And, did you any custom change? Did you fiddle with any world/map files, ie. the map.rwm file?
Maybe, it could have to do with some basic settings, possibly even the cfg file(s), here (medieval2.preference.cfg) i have ie. disabled autosave (auto_save = 0), autosave is known for potential bugs - you must just manually save your game now and then.


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At last (and maybe that is the best overall), i recommend to install everything from scratch: Remove TATW completely from your harddisk via Windows/Software application (where all your installed software is listed) and afterwards everything that is left (just in case, any TATW folders left?) manual removal, install TATW 3.2 (v3.0 plus 3.2 patch), run that, perhaps also try Barrow Downs with Eriador and perhaps also custom battles, first then, when everything seems to be okay with TATW 3.2, install a fresh downloaded TATW Realism+ v1.98 and repeat the things. I think it doesn't help now, that until v.1.94 or so, those issues didn't appear for you, there must be something wrong, basicly and just now.

[Aringtoit]

Davinci, I reinstalled everything--m2tw, TATW and 1.98. Everything's working fine now. Must have been a bad file. Sorry for the headache!