TATW Realism+ /Final/ [TATW 3.2]

[Aringtoit]

Got it DaVinci. Thanks! Going to check it out now.

[DaVinci]

^Alright.

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Mod updated to v1.6, 1st post. This update comes again with significant balancing changes.

[Aringtoit]

I like this mod DaVinci. Just started a Silvan Elves campaign. Figured they'd take the biggest hit with the archer's stats change and very little cavalry. So far so good though. Saruman's not running around like a maniac with a death wish for one.

One thing is there's no difference in archery stats between lower and higher tier archers that I can see. Want to see how that plays out.

[DaVinci]

I like this mod DaVinci. Just started a Silvan Elves campaign. Figured they'd take the biggest hit with the archer's stats change and very little cavalry. So far so good though. Saruman's not running around like a maniac with a death wish for one.

One thing is there's no difference in archery stats between lower and higher tier archers that I can see. Want to see how that plays out.

Tactics are much more important with this submod - but also strategy (one should think about every step)! However, as for battles, the times of positioning a group of (super) archers and wait until the enemy-army is annihilated is gone ... this said, archers still make a very relevant role in the combat model and its needed tactics (i usually never go without them), all types of units imo. have its part much more now. In regard of the background of good vs. evil kind of armies, it is pretty much like quality vs quantity, still the same as with TATW vanilla, but just re-balanced and re-shaped a lot. Btw., playing Silver Elves might be indeed a pretty nice challenge (as you get no region-gifts at the game-start contrary to the Silver Elven AI, so you start with only 3), and if Mordor focuses also on you, and that will save Gondor time to prepare.

An update-release is very soon due ... today or latest tomorrow, which will enhance again a lot of the game in several aspects.

[DaVinci]

Update v1.7 uploaded. Once again brings a lot balancing changes and adds new features (ie. a ZoR/AoR).

[DaVinci]

Updated to v1.75 ... some important adjustments.

[Aringtoit]

I like the way this plays DaVinci. Just downloaded 1.75 and started a new Silvan Elves campaign (I usually play as Eriador and Rohan so I'm getting used to the SE. They're tougher to play than I thought!). Just tweaked (extended) the ranges a little (very little) for all factions and left the rest alone. Playing on M/H and the battles are longer and tougher. I like the other changes you made too. This mod should get more attention imo.

I'll try to report back as it progresses.

[DaVinci]

I like the way this plays DaVinci. Just downloaded 1.75 and started a new Silvan Elves campaign (I usually play as Eriador and Rohan so I'm getting used to the SE. They're tougher to play than I thought!). Just tweaked (extended) the ranges a little (very little) for all factions and left the rest alone. Playing on M/H and the battles are longer and tougher. I like the other changes you made too. This mod should get more attention imo.

I'll try to report back as it progresses.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Basicly developed was the submod from the perspective of Eriador player, on M/M, and this difficulty is imo. the best basis for this design (ie. with no raised bow ranges as you did, thus melee has a slight more meaning in favour of evil side AI's), all in all enables/reflects the good side/quality vs evil side/quantity background at best (and this just without the extra-AI-bonusses from higher diff than M, actually TATW's design and my special design-bits do it already, the AI bonusses, but in a better "lore-true" shape), that means for battles that good side factions are pretty much superior until evil side is able to line up its elites in higher amounts or just has absolute overwhelming quantity vs small quality, in the latter case even (then heroic acting) medium good side units loose vs inferior evil side masses unless you have managed it to break their army ie. their chief is killed.

Yesterday i started a Rohan campaign and played until turn 30, and it is tough, have to use a lot micromanagement to provide the best unit stuff possible (bonusses via different local structures) and manage it to being liquid money-wise - although Theoden's cavalry is devastating ( with Rohan Riders 3exp via Edoras upgrade ), i must use a lot tactical action to win over Isengard's army consistence with partly 70 % heavy infantry stuff (which come quicker now with this submod version), parallel Mordor invades east regions ... . I wasn't able to get new regions until now but lost one (East Emnet) and Gap of Rohan is on the loose as well soon because Isengard now is able to line up there lots of troops and i'm not so much. Perhaps next time i must try another strategy to get new regions earlier which can compensate region losses.

However, it was a playtest, after turn 30 i toggled fow to view the scenery, and everything looks properly campaign outcome-wise - my strategical balancing is a sucess also for Eriador AI and all other look as expected/hoped (evil factions rule statistics, Mordor rules; Gondor holds back better as in last versions, etc.), so far until turn 30, the strategical design works "lore-true"

Edit: V 1.8 will bring a bit more finetuning (also for some unit stats again).

[Magpire]

You have made all the changes I would make but wouldn't have the foggiest idea on how to make them!^^' I usually play MOS but I made a new installation just to play your submod and its absolutely perfect, every faction acts how you expect and the character changes are perfect:B I usually play silvian elves but this time I thought I'd be evil and played Mordor and its so fun currently on turn 81 and I toggled_fow to see how everyone was doing and its perfect I was just wondering though is possible or even imaginable to combine your great work with MOS? Because that would just blow my mind^^' Thanks for all your hard work

[DaVinci]

You have made all the changes I would make but wouldn't have the foggiest idea on how to make them!^^' I usually play MOS but I made a new installation just to play your submod and its absolutely perfect, every faction acts how you expect and the character changes are perfect:B I usually play silvian elves but this time I thought I'd be evil and played Mordor and its so fun currently on turn 81 and I toggled_fow to see how everyone was doing and its perfect I was just wondering though is possible or even imaginable to combine your great work with MOS? Because that would just blow my mind^^' Thanks for all your hard work

Oh, you evil devil
You shall play a good side faction with this submod, lol. Actually with Mordor as player, you'll get lots of bonusses, but yes, it is also here "lore-true" that you can run out troops en masse vs good side factions all around.

As for combinations, i'm not responsible, i'll solely do this submod along my pace using only TATW's original vanilla, aka release stuff (i know TATW vanilla is using also submod stuff, implemented).

[DaVinci]

V 1.8 uploaded.

[Aringtoit]

Every time I start a campaign, you come out with an update! My Silvan Elves are saying "WTF??".

Just kidding. Keep em coming. It's really added to the Lore and the challenge. I'm getting attacked by the OoMM and Mordor now (at about turn 30.). The battles are tougher and more realistic imo even with the slight range increases I added and you have to use your head on the Strat map.

Only one question--the High Elves rarely make a move against the OoMM. Could that be due to Elrond being stationary? Isengard's moving all over the map with Saruman stationary, so it might just be the way it's playing out for the HE in this campaign. They were aggravating in vanilla too.

Anyway, really like what you've done. Thanks.

[Muuuu]

Hey DaVinci, your changes, reblalancing and tweaks are really looking interesting and well concieved, but I am "unfortunately" playing MOS and I do think that MOS could profit from some of your love as well. Any chances that you might look into it in the future once you got vanilla TATW up to your likings or would the relatively quick update cycle of MOS be a problem for you?


MfG

Muuuu

[MCJ]

Yes! This mod with MOS would be heaven!

[Paul Atreides]

Having played this mod with OoG and Isengard (VH/VH) it is clear that this mod is only meant to be played as the good guys. In both of my campaigns all good factions were steamrolled to oblivion by turn 85, leaving Gondor and Rohan with 1-3 provinces. In both campaigns Gondor lost Minas Tirith by turn 50. All in all, the good factions don't stand a chance unless they are controlled by the player.

[DaVinci]

Version 1.85 uploaded. Many balancing items again and one very new feature (option: Ents alliance expanded).
1st post changelog 1.85 added, and general submod description changed accordingly (also in response to Paul Atreides comment above ie. "Faction recommendation ...").

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As for MOS and other submod items ... quoting myself

As for combinations, i'm not responsible, i'll solely do this submod along my pace using only TATW's original vanilla, aka release stuff ... .

[Rickilicious]

Having played this mod with OoG and Isengard (VH/VH) it is clear that this mod is only meant to be played as the good guys. In both of my campaigns all good factions were steamrolled to oblivion by turn 85, leaving Gondor and Rohan with 1-3 provinces. In both campaigns Gondor lost Minas Tirith by turn 50. All in all, the good factions don't stand a chance unless they are controlled by the player.

Ya it can be seen with the HP increase alone. Orcs outnumber 2 to 1 in every fight and the hp increase devastates good guys. Unfortunately, its not all relevant as if you have more units, it becomes exponentially harder to win fights in which your outnumbered as opposed to it being 'more realistic'. Elves rely on their archers and HP owns archers

[DaVinci]

Ya it can be seen with the HP increase alone. Orcs outnumber 2 to 1 in every fight and the hp increase devastates good guys. Unfortunately, its not all relevant as if you have more units, it becomes exponentially harder to win fights in which your outnumbered as opposed to it being 'more realistic'. Elves rely on their archers and HP owns archers

You have quoted a comment which goes solely about campaign-outcome, while you are talking about real battles (outplayed) in your comment, right?

I have the impression that you have not played the submod but commenting though, because if you did, you would know that Elves with their bows inflict still high losses, as well as other quality archers.

This said

Ya it can be seen with the HP increase alone.

Wrong. Many parameters make up a battle outcome, in real battles anyway and especially also for autocalced battles.
HP = hitpoints ... how many hits a unit can take before death (the conditions for 1 hp and the lethality-resistence are multiple).
Now i reveal something what is unknown for non-modders at least: In TATW vanilla, the HP for all units (except just the special units) have been 2 already for the autocalc-battles, that was 1, 2 values, first value is battle human:AI, 2nd is AI:AI (which is also human:AI autocalced). Now it is 2, 3 values, that's all ... the hp ratio for autocalced battles didn't change, so far my answer to "it's all about the increased hp", it is not.
That arrows are much less lethal in this submod is just a design/balance decision.
And ie. for real battles, the Snagas and also some other evil side units are nerfed down a lot in the last versions, ie. with 3 or 4 crappy Bandits units (450-600 men) i can kill 1500 or more Snagas, but mostly they run away before such results happen, lol.

Orcs outnumber 2 to 1 in every fight ...

Right. And even more. Did you read Tolkien 'The Lord of the Rings'?
I as player win those battles, also if it is 4 to 1 or much more, i inflict 10x higher losses at the evil AI as long they don't field an army of quality units, what can happen, but also those i win. Good side AI of course has trouble ... but again, did you read Tolkien 'The Lord of the Rings', and the submod description 1st post?

...and the hp increase devastates good guys.

Wrong. At least not when the human player fights vs the Orcs, or you are a too weak player

This submod is not meant for players who seek a mere neutrally balanced total war gameplay with Middle-earth background but for players who look after lore-immersion aka 'The Lord of the Rings' for the campaign-play (not the "real" RPG experience though, for this you have the Fellowship camp), means for this submod, playing a good side faction as described in the 1st post. However, players of this mod can choose a faction as they want, of course, but might experience something that is not according to the design, that's all, but still can have a lot of fun, especially if an evil side player just wants to bring Middle-earth into a dark era, lol.

People, please understand, i share here my personal TATW submod. I appreciate player experiences a lot as they help to get overview (version number would be nice per experience-report), but please not just (imo. plein) claims.

And btw., i'm working on the balance still, the slider has been pushed far high for the evil side, with intention for the campaign-play ... now i slide it back, a bit, but not too much ...example: The submod is not balanced/meant and won't be (in the end/final version) to see an option for a resurrected huge Elvish Middle-earth empire, although also in this mod, the Elves still field pretty much the best foot units and even their noble melee horse is one of the best.

[AQUILIFIER]

The mod is very good and the battles remember Roma Surrectum a little . I am playing with Eriador now,- Rohan is dead, Gondor battered, as are the Silvans. It seems that I should clear half of the Middle Earth of Mordor + destroying the Orks! Sounds fun

Playing version 1.8 on hard/hard by the way

[DaVinci]

Ok, thanks ... a turn number is also interesting for such short summeries.

And remind you, every updated version changes also (at least always slightly, sometimes significantly) the balancing, pretty sure 1.85 is different to 1.8.

I'll probably release 1.9 still today, which rounds up the current version. Edit: ...not today, but tomorrow is certain.