Ideas for TATW HS Patch

[The Norseman]

Patch for TATW

Hey guys, I think I might try to release a Hotseat patch for the next release of TATW. For TATW 3.3 or 3.4
and I would like to hear what you guys think of the following ideas. Please comment if you think other things should be done as well. Note that these points are just the first things I can think of at the moment.

Dale

Dale:

- Cities such as Grasgard and Riverrun should be able to construct ports. Income for those cities are greatly needed. Rhun`s cities can earn up to 1000 - 1700 the first turns while Grasgard and Riverrun struggles to make more than 500-600.

- Araw should be able to build a market. The region borders to SEVEN other regions and can potentially trade with all of them. Such an important key region should thus be able to recruit a market. We are not sure if this is possible for a castle, but we will have to check that out later.

- All of Dale`s cities have poor harvest making population growth and recruiting more difficult.

- Should not Dale be able to construct mines when they are so close to mountains both in the north and the west?

- Dale will have Araw as one of its starting regions. Rhun has 9 cities and all of them are far more wealthy then Dale`s 4 cities. Where 1 of them is a village.

Rhun

Rhun:

- The Rhun general in Rhomen can in turn 1 capture the city of Kugaovd, thus receiving a city without having to fight a single battle. The general must start in another city so he is not able to reach the city in the first turn.

Isengard

Isengard:

- Isengard should have 1 more starting region. Either the two villages in the north west or the larger city in the west.

Mordor

Mordor:


- Nothing I can think of at the moment.

Harad

Harad:


- Increase the economy slightly.

Gondor

Gondor:
- Gondor should receive 1 other settlement in the east or the west. Gondor is fighting Mordor and Harad on his own and winning can be really hard if the opposing players are just ok. A city like Cair Andros would be the ideal city.

Eriador

Eriador:


- The Breeland Militia should have their stats improved. Their attack is 6 and their defence 8. Their defence is alright, but their attack should be minimum 7 or 8 as not only does OOTMM have double their size in one unit, but their units can also beat Eriador easily.

- Eriador must wait 5 turns to recruit units for some reason. It should be changed so that they may recruit at the first turn such as all other factions can do.

- Eriador could have a small economy boost. OOTMM and OOG can easily earn twice as much as Eriador and every other faction really.

Eriador

High Elves:


- The economy of the High Elves is difficult to maintain at a balanced level. If you have more than one stack you will find yourself going red in a couple of turns. This does not happen to other factions which can have atleast 1 and a half/2 stacks before having the economy dropping. HE will because of that have another city as one of its starting regions such as Hoarwell or another one in the west.

- Rivendell will begin with a larger garrison.

- HE will start with 1000 more so that its treasury does not go through the floor.

- It has been mentioned that HE troops could have a lower upkeep cost.

- HE will start with another region in the west (not decided)

Rohan

Rohan:

- Rohan could also start with 1 other settlement such as Tirith Anduin.

Silvan Elves

Silvan Elves

- The autoresolve is pretty terrible, but if they can have Eryn Dolen as one of their starting regions, it should balance the game. The Silvan Elves and High Elves for that matter have the slowest recruitmentrate in the game.

General Fixes

General Fixes:


- Population in several cities increased
- Population requirement from Town to Large Town changed from 4000 to 2500
- Population requirement from Wooden Castle to Castle changed from 8000 to 4000
- Population requirement from Large Town to Minor City changed from 12 000 to 6000
- Population requirement from Castle to Fortress changed from 14 000 to 7000
- Decrease the cost of watchtowers from 200 to 150. Dont know if that is possible. Let me know if you do.
- Disband some rebel units in different rebel cities.

So what do you guys think? These are just some ideas I have for now.

[Emperor of Hell]

Good idea!

There are also several scripts not working properly which can be changed to work with hotseats, this should also happen.

Stats in general aren't really fair for good factions, especially elves, cavalry and archers. Perhaps RC stats would help for balance. Maybe we should try that, a RC hotseat.

[edse]

Should the overall population growth be increased? In a hs you neither have time nor money to grow your cities.

[The Norseman]

Yeah that is why I am going to initiate some "Skip a Few" hotseats once the existing ones have ended. It basically means I let the AI play against eachother until turn 40 - 60 before turning all human. We then continue to play from then. It will allow the different settlements to grow! Making war more constant and easier to begin and continue.

[Gimli]

- Like EoH, several scripts don't work in a Hotseat, that for sure needs to be fixed.

- Factions like Dale and Eriador need to have a re-work of the starting settlements, so they have access to better units early on, because more so in a HS, your playing against humans, not AI, so its much harder to match your crappy units against Orcs/Evil Men. And its Auto - Resolve, its unfair

- And one thing that bothers me, is that Rivendell always gets captured by OOTMM, High Elves cant even defend themselves..Rivendell should start off with a 5 unit garrison, and be able to recruit 4-6 units to make it a half stack, so it has a chance to defend from OOTMM.

I agree with edse, the overall population for most settlements should be increased, because by turn 60 , some facitons still cant recruit Heavy Units, which sucks.

[*Ranger*]

For Eriador, at least allow them to recruit swordsmen. Fighting the entire HS with spear militia isnt good. Also maybe decrease the cost of watchtowers, spending thousands of gold to just be able to see whats going on especially as Eriador had Rangers patroling the borders, so its lore accurate.

[Bladvak]

For Eriador, at least allow them to recruit swordsmen. Fighting the entire HS with spear militia isnt good. Also maybe decrease the cost of watchtowers, spending thousands of gold to just be able to see whats going on especially as Eriador had Rangers patroling the borders, so its lore accurate.

Maybe have more watchtowers for Eriador along the northen and eastern border provinces - much like Roman Empires in Rome:BI?

I have done this lots of times before in other hotseats. The trick is to balance it out in about turn 30. As admin one can give a minor faction some units so that it does not die, but rather enables it to resist the major factions and sometimes push them back. Right before we start it is also possible to disband some troops if factions like Mordor has five full stacks.

Count me in, please

[The Norseman]

At turn 60 all faction are able to do so. Since Im turning them AI, they receive AI bonus. It gives them more money and thus more to build. I dont think changing the cost of watchtowers is a good idea. The price is already really low. You can just use spies instead. But yeah increasing the population in one of the castle cities will enable eriador to recruit other units than militia all the time so that should change as well.

[StealthFox]

Patch for TATW

Hey guys, I think I might try to release a Hotseat patch for the next release of TATW. For TATW 3.3 or 3.4
and I would like to hear what you guys think of the following ideas. Please comment if you think other things should be done as well. Note that these points are just the first things I can think of at the moment.

You might be waiting a long time until 3.3. We don't even know if there will be a 3.3 or if KK will release another large update as 4.0.

Dale:
- Araw should be able to build a market. The region borders to SEVEN other regions and can potentially trade with all of them. Such an important key region should thus be able to recruit a market.

Is it possible to give a market line building to castle, forts, etc...?

Rhun:

- Rhun generals have way more movementpoints than other generals in the campaign. I believe their bonus movementpoints should be removed or lowered quite a bit. They already have an economical advantage as well as they receive the most generals after Harad.

- The Rhun general in Rhomen can in turn 1 capture the city of Kugaovd, thus receiving a city without having to fight a single battle. The general must start in another city so he is not able to reach the city in the first turn.

Giving dale some population/economy buffs is probably a good idea, but I wouldn't recommend nerfing Rhun any. Having movement points and a good economy are the two main bonuses they get. Their starting troops are not that great and generally suck as autoresolve compared to Dale.

Eriador:


- The Breeland Militia should have their stats improved. Their attack is 6 and their defence 8. Their defence is alright, but their attack should be minimum 7 or 8 as not only does OOTMM have double their size in one unit, but their units can also beat Eriador easily.

Small stat adjustments for Eriador seems appropriate, but not too much, they have other advantages. They have have a good economy and their starting position means their usually not an immediate target for attack. After a few turns they can churn out a lot of units too.

- Eriador must wait 5 turns to recruit units for some reason. It should be changed so that they may recruit at the first turn such as all other factions can do.

I think this has something to do with the way the script works with changing Eriador to Arnor.

Stats in general aren't really fair for good factions, especially elves, cavalry and archers. Perhaps RC stats would help for balance. Maybe we should try that, a RC hotseat.

I don't think its a good idea to mess with stats too much. As I said before every faction has certain advantages and disadvantages.

Should the overall population growth be increased? In a hs you neither have time nor money to grow your cities.

Things like population growth and corruption reduction for all factions would be a good idea.

Yeah that is why I am going to initiate some "Skip a Few" hotseats once the existing ones have ended. It basically means I let the AI play against eachother until turn 40 - 60 before turning all human. We then continue to play from then. It will allow the different settlements to grow! Making war more constant and easier to begin and continue.

I'm not sure if that's exactly fair. By turn 60 OoG could have Eriador almost defeated, Isengard could have Rohan almost defeated, and Mordor could have assembles 3-4 full stacks.

- And one thing that bothers me, is that Rivendell always gets captured by OOTMM, High Elves cant even defend themselves..Rivendell should start off with a 5 unit garrison, and be able to recruit 4-6 units to make it a half stack, so it has a chance to defend from OOTMM.

Rivendell could get a few extra units, but that could put extra strain on the HE economy.

Also maybe decrease the cost of watchtowers, spending thousands of gold to just be able to see whats going on especially as Eriador had Rangers patroling the borders, so its lore accurate.

Wouldn't something like watchtower cost be hardcoded?

[Gimli]

I say just do it for 3.2, because no garuntees there will bea 3.3 or something on those lines..And if so, it would be a while till we see one.

I'm not sure if that's exactly fair. By turn 60 OoG could have Eriador almost defeated, Isengard could have Rohan almost defeated, and Mordor could have assembles 3-4 full stacks.

It would also give other factions, 2-3 stacks.

[Makrell]

I would like fewer rebel settlements, to make attack constant.

also in normal skip a few hotseats all factions are humans, as AI script will still work for the player after turned human midgame

also i would suggest removing garrison script, as in hotseats factions can defend themselves.

as per regions, i would give mordor more mirkwood settlements and silvan elves 1 more mirkwood. Gondor should own more of ithilien, or atleast all of osgiliath, making war faster. druvauth laur in east gondor and south east rohan should not be rebel, as forcing a player to focus that way instead of towards the enemy is bad mojo. same with khand.

maybe reduce movement bonuses for invasions, as they give the evils quite some power

also i applaud for wanting to make a hs patch, if tatw became hs friendly i would seriously consider playing more hses here

[The Norseman]

You might be waiting a long time until 3.3. We don't even know if there will be a 3.3 or if KK will release another large update as 4.0.

Ah I understand

Giving dale some population/economy buffs is probably a good idea, but I wouldn't recommend nerfing Rhun any. Having movement points and a good economy are the two main bonuses they get. Their starting troops are not that great and generally suck as autoresolve compared to Dale.

In my experience they are exactly the same, just that Rhun can recruit more units without having to worry about their economy. Rhun also starts with a lot more regions and way richer regions as well which is why they are able to do so. Would it not be possible to allow Dale to start with 2 or 3 more units or Araw? Or would that be too un-lore like?

Small stat adjustments for Eriador seems appropriate, but not too much, they have other advantages. They have have a good economy and their starting position means their usually not an immediate target for attack. After a few turns they can churn out a lot of units too.

If Eriadors economy is good, then OOTMMs and OOGs economy is just Insanely amazingly great. I can earn up to 100 000 within 40 turns playing as OOTMM at the same time as I am pumping out endless waves of units. While with eriador I can only reach about 12 000 and I can not recruit as much as OOTMM. If they could make OOTMM have like 80/90 troops it could also balance some stuff out.

I think this has something to do with the way the script works with changing Eriador to Arnor.

can it be fixed?

I'm not sure if that's exactly fair. By turn 60 OoG could have Eriador almost defeated, Isengard could have Rohan almost defeated, and Mordor could have assembles 3-4 full stacks.

I have done this lots of times before in other hotseats. The trick is to balance it out in about turn 30. As admin one can give a minor faction some units so that it does not die, but rather enables it to resist the major factions and sometimes push them back. Right before we start it is also possible to disband some troops if factions like Mordor has five full stacks.

also in normal skip a few hotseats all factions are humans, as AI script will still work for the player after turned human midgame

No. If you make all factions human in turn 1 they lose their AI bonus. But you need to turn them AI after turning them human.

also i would suggest removing garrison script, as in hotseats factions can defend themselves.

Garrison script is disabled when hotseats are enabled? Im pretty sure it is. When someone have sieged a city where an army should appear to defend the city because of garrison script, nothing has happened. We havent experienced any garrison script problems. It only happened in turn 1 as some factions still were AI before the password had been entered.

maybe reduce movement bonuses for invasions, as they give the evils quite some power

also i applaud for wanting to make a hs patch, if tatw became hs friendly i would seriously consider playing more hses here

Yeah many people have said this and I totally agree with you.

[Makrell]

No. If you make all factions human in turn 1 they lose their AI bonus. But you need to turn them AI after turning them human.

Garrison script is disabled when hotseats are enabled arent they? We havent experienced any garrison script problems. It only happened in turn 1 as some factions still were AI before the password had been entered.

ah i misunderstood you i thoiught you made not all factions human turn 1 we are at an agreement

as per garrison script i must have misunderstood, i akm not certain as i have not playyed many tatw hotseats,

also 1 thing which is harder but in autoresolve infantry is usually much better than archers, making elves not as good as they might could have been and dwarves very good, as said this isnt always the case, but just my 2 cents, this would be way moree timetaking though

[Gimli]

I dont think Mordor should start off with any Mirkwood regions except Dol Guldor, because then it will give them a little bit of an advantage over the Silvans, and if we were adding regions to factions, Araw, and Elyn Dolen should for sure be given to Dale and Silvans to balance it out.

I would focus more on the good factions, because a lot of factions are at a major dis-advantage when it comes to auto-resolve, More so for Eriador and Rohan, little bit for the Elves. Dale is much stronger and better then Rhun at auto-resolve, as well as Gondor which also features a good balance between its units and Mordors.

And if we can get this done, and if KK makes another patch, we might be able to get this put in for the Hotseat part of the mod

[The Norseman]

The reason why the good factions need to be improved is because the good factions actually are not intended for HS useage. That is why we need to balance the game. You are able to use for example Elven archers ingame and fire from 1000000 miles away, but since we use autoresolve that does not come into account.

[Gimli]

I say, make one list of idea's we all agree on, and then get to work.

[The Norseman]

General Fixes:


- Population in several cities increased
- Population requirement from Town to Large Town changed from 4000 to 2500
- Population requirement from Wooden Castle to Castle changed from 8000 to 2500/3000
- Population requirement from Large Town to Minor City changed from 12 000 to 4000/5000
- Population requirement from Castle to Fortress changed from 14 000 to 7000
- Dale has Araw as one of its starting regions. Does it really say in the lore that Dale did not have Araw?
- Silvan Elves has Amon Gastal as one of its starting regions. This is a small village north of Lothlorien. It wont make much difference, but it will balance it a bit.
- Rivendell begins with a larger garrison. We might have to give HE a 1000+ in economy to keep it from going red the first three turns.
- Decrease the cost of watchtowers from 200 to 150. Dont know if that is possible. Let me know if you do.

These are just some points we have spoken about so that those of you who have not payed attention know what some people want. If you disagree or agree then dont be afraid to let us know!

[knicolas2]

good thing . because good factions are mostly dammed weak in auto resolve

[StealthFox]

General Fixes:


- Population in several cities increased
- Population requirement from Town to Large Town changed from 4000 to 2500
- Population requirement from Wooden Castle to Castle changed from 8000 to 2500/3000
- Population requirement from Large Town to Minor City changed from 12 000 to 4000/5000
- Population requirement from Castle to Fortress changed from 14 000 to 7000

Instead of doing all that I think it would be better (and easier) to just do an across the board population boost for all factions. I think that it's only a couple of lines in one file to adjust this. The above would require a lot of work. Someone can correct me if I'm mistaken. As I said earlier reducing corruption penalty for everyone would also be a good idea to boost everyone's economy.

- Dale has Araw as one of its starting regions. Does it really say in the lore that Dale did not have Araw?
- Silvan Elves has Amon Gastal as one of its starting regions. This is a small village north of Lothlorien. It wont make much difference, but it will balance it a bit.
- Rivendell begins with a larger garrison. We might have to give HE a 1000+ in economy to keep it from going red the first three turns.
- Decrease the cost of watchtowers from 200 to 150. Dont know if that is possible. Let me know if you do.

These are just some points we have spoken about so that those of you who have not payed attention know what some people want. If you disagree or agree then dont be afraid to let us know!

Silvan Elves, High Elves, Eriador, Rohan, and even Isengard would benefit from getting an extra starting settlement or two. I'm not sure if any other factions should recieve any extra settlements though. For example, giving Gondor all of Osgiliath, Ithilien, and Cair Andros would copmletely make them a power house. They could rush Minas Morgul and destroy Mordor in the first ten turns.

Perhaps what would be best is to reduce the amount of garrisoned rebels. That way rebel settlements still act as a neutral buffer, but weaker factions don't take heavy losses from taking them.

[*Ranger*]

These changes look good