Siege of Syracuse Battle scenario (214–212 BC)

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Hi despide the Siege of Cartage is still an interesting scenario , I think it woudl be way more interesting and cool to see the Archimede Machines in work during the Siege of Syracuse (214–212 BC)

Sicily, which was wrested from Carthaginian control during the First Punic War (264-241 BC), was the first province of the Roman Republic not directly part of Italy. The Kingdom of Syracuse was an allied independent region in the south east of the island and a close ally of Rome during the long reign of King Hiero II. In 215 BC, Hiero's grandson, Hieronymus, came to the throne on his grandfather's death and Syracuse fell under the influence of an anti-Roman faction, including two of his uncles, amongst the Syracusan elite. Despite the assassination of Hieronymus and the removal of the pro-Carthaginian leaders, Rome's threatening reaction to the danger that a Syracusian alliance with Carthage would bring forced the new republican leaders of Syracuse to prepare for war.

Despite diplomatic attempts, war broke out between the Roman Republic and the Kingdom of Syracuse in 214 BC, while the Romans were still busy battling with Carthage at the height of the Second Punic War (218-201 BC).

A Roman force led by the General Marcus Claudius Marcellus consequently laid siege to the port city by sea and land. The city of Syracuse, located on the eastern coast of Sicily was renowned for its significant fortifications, great walls that protected the city from attack. Among the Syracuse defenders was the mathematician and scientist Archimedes.

The city was fiercely defended for many months against all the measures the Romans could bring to bear. Realizing how difficult the siege would be, the Romans brought their own unique devices and inventions to aid their assault. These included the sambuca, a floating siege tower with grappling hooks, as well as ship mounted scaling ladders that were lowered with pulleys onto the city walls.
Despite these novel inventions, Archimedes devised defensive devices to counter the Roman efforts including a huge crane operated hook — the Claw of Archimedes — that was used to lift the enemy ships out of the sea before dropping them to their doom. Legend has it that he also created a giant mirror (see Heat ray) that was used to deflect the powerful Mediterranean sun onto the ships' sails, setting fire to them. These measures, along with the fire from ballistas and onagers mounted on the city walls, frustrated the Romans and forced them to attempt costly direct assaults.

That woudl be surely a really satisfing battle scenario ...

[TheSwordofRome]

Hi despide the Siege of Cartage is still an interesting scenario , I think it woudl be way more interesting and cool to see the Archimede Machines in work during the Siege of Syracuse (214–212 BC)





That woudl be surely a really satisfing battle scenario ...

I like this idea, but I wonder how this would work, The syrcauseans having a special boat type with a mirror on it?

[Actaeus]

I like this idea, but I wonder how this would work, The syrcauseans having a special boat type with a mirror on it?

I've seen them try the mirror myth on Mythbusters. However, they did not succeed in setting anything on fire if I remember it correct.

[Dwarven Berserker]

I've seen them try the mirror myth on Mythbusters. However, they did not succeed in setting anything on fire if I remember it correct.

Some qoutes from that episode were:
Adam: I can't help but notice that IT'S NOT ON FIRE YET!
Jamie: Our death ray doesn't seem to be working right. I'm standing right in it, and I'm not dead yet.


Seriously though, this death ray probably never existed, and even if it did, it probably didn't do a lot

[Vercingetorix The Great]

Some qoutes from that episode were:
Adam: I can't help but notice that IT'S NOT ON FIRE YET!
Jamie: Our death ray doesn't seem to be working right. I'm standing right in it, and I'm not dead yet.


Seriously though, this death ray probably never existed, and even if it did, it probably didn't do a lot

It did exist. A greek scientist tested it in 1973 using a bronze coating and the ships burst to flames.
However ancient ships had tar on them so this aided in the burning

[broccoliano]

It was not a mirror,but a lens.And it was not set aboard a ship,but rather mounted on the walls.It was simply too big to be placed anywhere else.
The records of the battle gives much credit to Archimede's inventions,both the ones from the contemporary authors as well as those from later historians.This gives us a certain degree of safety about their accuracy.That and the fact that being Archimede a notorious anti roman,the later romans accounts had no desire in depicting him,and his work, as brilliant and functional.
A lens project was also commisioned by the roman senate after the punic war ended,to be placed in Ostia harbour.But it was later abandoned as it was too costly,and no immediate threats from the sea could be foreseen for the future.

On a side note,I would personally like to know where did this Mythbuster experiment took place.The mediterranean sun in Sicily,furthermore the southern part where Syracusae is located,it's a pretty difficult setting to recreate.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Its quite strange that tough it is scientifically possible and attested to have been used ... probably the Mythbusters didn't use the right materials .
I have seen that episode as well and the way they treated the argument was sloppy at the best , giving some kids some small reflective paper and wood stuff isn't really what could have been in the ancient period ...

Anyway who cares that they couln't do it , doesn't means at all it couln't be done , as other experiments have instead succeeded ...

A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology tested the invention with 30cm (12”) mirror tiles, and did manage to create a charred patch and some flames at a range of 30 meters (100 feet)

Tough probably Archimede wasn't a last minute special effect guy , but an ingenious mind , I tend to think that if such a thing , completely out of any canonic weapon is described by ancient texts is quite plausible in it's unbelieavibility to be most probably true ... woudl be hard to "invent" the idea of a Death ray burning things at distance in a period where all distant fire was usually done by arrow ...

[Julio-Claudian]

Its quite strange that tough it is scientifically possible and attested to have been used ... probably the Mythbusters didn't use the right materials .
I have seen that episode as well and the way they treated the argument was sloppy at the best , giving some kids some small reflective paper and wood stuff isn't really what could have been in the ancient period ...

Anyway who cares that they couln't do it , doesn't means at all it couln't be done , as other experiments have instead succeeded ...

A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology tested the invention with 30cm (12”) mirror tiles, and did manage to create a charred patch and some flames at a range of 30 meters (100 feet)

Tough probably Archimede wasn't a last minute special effect guy , but an ingenious mind , I tend to think that if such a thing , completely out of any canonic weapon is described by ancient texts is quite plausible in it's unbelieavibility to be most probably true ... woudl be hard to "invent" the idea of a Death ray burning things at distance in a period where all distant fire was usually done by arrow ...

Good point haha. It's far more likely that it did happen, and it did of course, if it didn't then it would seem that sci-fi was invented far earlier than we thought.

[DarthRuanek]

A crane that could lift ships out of the sea and then drop them? That would be hard even with modern engineering. I mean, if the ship happened to be next to the crane, maybe distance wouldn't be an issue. But picking up an entire ship, probably with enemy soldiers on it, seems difficult as well. I mean, there isn't an easy thing to grab on to.

The mirror idea was tested by Mythbusters three separate times, none of them successfully. I won't pretend to know how well they recreated the conditions, though. It's been a while. And in my opinion their last attempt (the one with a few hundred children pointing mirrors) was the weakest. The idea was that the Greeks had manpower to point many mirrors, but I don't see how that's any better than pointing hundreds of mirrors without as much human error.

[RexImperator]

A crane that could lift ships out of the sea and then drop them? That would be hard even with modern engineering. I mean, if the ship happened to be next to the crane, maybe distance wouldn't be an issue. But picking up an entire ship, probably with enemy soldiers on it, seems difficult as well. I mean, there isn't an easy thing to grab on to.

Tests on this have been done and it is possible but there's a trick to it. The ship is lifted out of the water but not completely, only the front or back part are pulled out. galley's being what they are aren't incredibly well balanced and so when you release the crane it cause the boat to take on water or capsize.

A good description of this is in Jeff Champion's Tyrants of Syracuse Volume 2. The actual tests were done by Rorres and Harris in A formidable War Machine: Construction and Operation of Archimedes Hand

[DarthRuanek]

Tests on this have been done and it is possible but there's a trick to it. The ship is lifted out of the water but not completely, only the front or back part are pulled out. galley's being what they are aren't incredibly well balanced and so when you release the crane it cause the boat to take on water or capsize.

A good description of this is in Jeff Champion's Tyrants of Syracuse Volume 2. The actual tests were done by Rorres and Harris in A formidable War Machine: Construction and Operation of Archimedes Hand

Well, it wasn't that part of the crane I was questioning as much as the length. I imagine trying to pick up a presumably moving trireme with a crane of limited length is difficult. The counterbalance would have to be heavy, and that would make quick rotation/movement difficult.

Same thing with the "sun ray" - be it lenses or mirrors (and most things I've seen think mirrors) it's not easy to concentrate sunlight on a moving target without modern equipment.

[RexImperator]

Well, it wasn't that part of the crane I was questioning as much as the length. I imagine trying to pick up a presumably moving trireme with a crane of limited length is difficult. The counterbalance would have to be heavy, and that would make quick rotation/movement difficult.

Same thing with the "sun ray" - be it lenses or mirrors (and most things I've seen think mirrors) it's not easy to concentrate sunlight on a moving target without modern equipment.

Well the Romans were besiegeing the city so the quinquiremes were moving fairly slowly. Not being particularly nimble and being fairly shallow meant that the counterbalance could be comparatively small. It's unlikely that this would have had an application outside of a siege where ships move slowly in order get troops closer to walls or in if they were more nimble ships like triremes.

[Asgaroth]

In general, I hope they put more historical battles in the game.

[The dead one]

Why just not shoot fire arrows at the sail ? The only reason why using a sort of sun ray would be to make the enemys blind. I think we can quite sure just put that myth to death, that they used it to set things on fire.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

They burned the same vessels , not just sails , and withthe ray they could put on fire distant ships as well ... but the very fact that it's describing a scifi weapon , makes it more likely to be true ...

[DarthRuanek]

They burned the same vessels , not just sails , and withthe ray they could put on fire distant ships as well ... but the very fact that it's describing a scifi weapon , makes it more likely to be true ...

I don't know. Even in ancient times it was probably well known that the sun brings heat, and they had mirrors. So it's not too hard to imagine that it's possible to reflect sunlight to bring heat to another point. Hardly science fiction. But also difficult with even today's more reflective mirrors.

[Julio-Claudian]

I don't know. Even in ancient times it was probably well known that the sun brings heat, and they had mirrors. So it's not too hard to imagine that it's possible to reflect sunlight to bring heat to another point. Hardly science fiction. But also difficult with even today's more reflective mirrors.

It was a lens not a mirror. Quite different.

[Taran.]

A test of the Archimedes heat ray was carried out in 1973 by the Greek scientist Ioannis Sakkas. The experiment took place at the Skaramagas naval base outside Athens. On this occasion 70 mirrors were used, each with a copper coating and a size of around five by three feet (1.5 by 1 m). The mirrors were pointed at a plywood mock-up of a Roman warship at a distance of around 160 feet (50 m). When the mirrors were focused accurately, the ship burst into flames within a few seconds. The plywood ship had a coating of tar paint, which may have aided combustion.[30] A coating of tar would have been commonplace on ships in the classical era.[d]

Just read this on Wikipedia. Perhaps the American sun is not as hot as the Greek one?

[DarthRuanek]

I could actually do it pretty easily when younger with one single small lens ... I do not see a big difficulty if you have the proper lens and instruments ... perhaps the Mythbusters just didn't try with the right things and also its an argument that woudl require some serious and long study not a small experiment long the lenght of a TV show episode ...
Then as I said A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology could reproduce it .

It was a lens not a mirror. Quite different.

Every time I've heard of it it was with mirrors, not lenses. I don't know if we really know for sure. I do know that several experiments were conducted with varying results, meaning it may not have been that reliable. Of course, it only had to work that one day.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I could actually do it pretty easily when younger with one single small lens ... I do not see a big difficulty if you have the proper lens and instruments ... perhaps the Mythbusters just didn't try with the right things and also its an argument that woudl require some serious and long study not a small experiment long the lenght of a TV show episode ...
Then as I said A group of students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology could reproduce it .