Liberalism vs Ethnic nationalism

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I have contradictory political beliefs. I'm a strong believer in liberalism yet I also have a strong emotional attachment to nationalism and these beliefs are becoming incompatible. This also seems to be true of many European societies as a whole.

On the one hand, I believe strongly in liberty for everyone. I also have a lot of empathy for people fleeing poverty or oppression. With a this mindset it is very difficult to justify travel and immigration restrictions.

On the other hand, I have a strong emotional attachment to monocultural nationalism and for some reason it pains me to hear about large immigrant minorities. I also seem to be racist about this, I am more accepting of white immigrants than other immigrants, I suspect because they tend to be richer and their children become ethnically white Irish.

What are your opinions about this phenomenon?

[Claudius Gothicus]

You can very well assign your Liberal Values to a National Identity, in the form of Constitutional Patriotism:

One defends a certain National Identity(let's say the ideas behind the construction of a certain Nation-State like freedom, equality, solidarity, progress etc.) and certain Liberal Values(Equality before the Law, Constitutionalism, Division of Powers and Democracy, Rights and obligations) because one believes in their mutual interdependance for continued existence, for example: ''I'm against radical Islam and therefore prefer Western Culture because radical Islam, by attacking(as in terrorism) said culture, is actually being harmful to that ideological position: Liberal Values''.

It does not matter if the National Identity of a Nation-State changes on the surface(culinary customs, festivities, plurality of clothing or race) as long as the axioms, the basis from which said society came to be in the first place are unchanged.

Another important factor is that one can't take a general final position on a certain issue, that would be conservative like... not liberal at all. One has to analyze situations separately and judge in accordance to the harms, dysfunctions and rights being wronged.

[Dr. Croccer]

I fail to see how it's contradictory. You don't want people to suffer abroad but you don't want your own country getting problems due to too many immigrants. They're not mutually exclusive, it's not like the only way to help them is inviting them over, far from it.

You want to help people in Africa? Send money to their governments, urge for less protectionism so that the farmers there can finally sell their crops to your market, get companies to open new franchises over there. It's a question of dealing with the root of the problem. You'll keep having a constant stream of immigrants if the countries they come from are just unliveable. By stabilizing those countries, the people can live happily and so can you. I mean, for 's sake, Ireland was pretty damn bad until a couple of decades ago. If the country didn't pull itself up by the bootstraps and modernized itself you'd still have a huge number of Irishmen trying to flee from it.

[Kitsunegari]

You want to help people in Africa? Send money to their governments

Bad idea, unless your goal is to finance the current government's fleet of Mercedes.

Ethnicity is language, upbringing and common identity(with it's consecuences like behavior, outlook and general identification). What most nationalists fall for however is racial-nationalism, which is truly stupid as

Why? Obviously things like social mores and government are the products of distinct peoples, not the other way around.

[Mithridates the Great]

I have contradictory political beliefs. I'm a strong believer in liberalism yet I also have a strong emotional attachment to nationalism and these beliefs are becoming incompatible. This also seems to be true of many European societies as a whole.

On the one hand, I believe strongly in liberty for everyone. I also have a lot of empathy for people fleeing poverty or oppression. With a this mindset it is very difficult to justify travel and immigration restrictions

I believe that I am nationalist too but this doesn't mean that I don't believe in liberty or in freedon.Also this doesn't mean that I must be fascist or a neonazi.Nationalism doesn't mean not believing in democratic ways,the problem is that some people cannot understand this.For example if the country which you live becomes conquered by an another nation wouldn't you want to be liberate and have freedom? the same is for every nation too.I believe in freedom.

On the other hand, I have a strong emotional attachment to monocultural nationalism and for some reason it pains me to hear about large immigrant minorities. I also seem to be racist about this, I am more accepting of white immigrants than other immigrants, I suspect because they tend to be richer and their children become ethnically white Irish.

You mean xenophobic?There is a big difference there...I want to say that if in one country live many imigants illigaly from a specific nation this doesn't mean that someone should hate the country for this...it is the people who chose to go to another country with a hope of a better living.For the legal immigants I have no problem at all
Why someone should have at all if the immigrant is no a murder,thief or in general a bad person?

[Aanker]

The concepts of AMERICA and LIBERTY seem to go well together, so I don't see why patriotism and liberalism would be incompatible. Nationalism is trickier, however, since I have read somewhat different interpretations of its implications (some of which may be contradictory to liberal ideas such as free trade between nations).

[Squiggle]

I have contradictory political beliefs. I'm a strong believer in liberalism yet I also have a strong emotional attachment to nationalism and these beliefs are becoming incompatible. This also seems to be true of many European societies as a whole.

On the one hand, I believe strongly in liberty for everyone. I also have a lot of empathy for people fleeing poverty or oppression. With a this mindset it is very difficult to justify travel and immigration restrictions.

On the other hand, I have a strong emotional attachment to monocultural nationalism and for some reason it pains me to hear about large immigrant minorities. I also seem to be racist about this, I am more accepting of white immigrants than other immigrants, I suspect because they tend to be richer and their children become ethnically white Irish.

What are your opinions about this phenomenon?

I'm a tad confused: The thread title says ethnic nationalism but your writing as if your advocating a mono culture, and while you may or may not be more predisposed towards one race over another [we all are, dont feel guilty it really doesnt matter] your issue is culture.

If you want a monocultural society I'd have to say liberalism is the greatest force to create that. With lower regulation and freerer the market, people will act as individuals- necessarily the best actions for an immigrant and their descendants is to learn the language, adopt the mores, dress, attitudes and sometimes even the name of the primary culture. Ironically individualism creates a form of collective homogeneity. Converse that with the typical leftwing state bribery, whatever the means-- be it the canadian model of sponsoring ethnic parades or the more american model of handing out legal/economic benefits to very specific groups in order to encourage a separate entity from the larger society, the results the same. Bigger Government divides the people by its nature, they want to do it.

If you are actually talking ethnic nationalism not specifically culture, i.e you are displeased even when British move to Ireland and assimilate, then yes, you are a racist, and your beliefs are contradictory.

[Blaze86420]

I don't understand ethnic nationalism, how are genes, complexion, and facial features anything to be proud of? Now being proud of your culture, I can understand, even though culture is dynamic and not always inclusive. But racial/ethnic nationalism boggles my mind.

[Claudius Gothicus]

I don't understand ethnic nationalism, how are genes, complexion, and facial features anything to be proud of? Now being proud of your culture, I can understand, even though culture is dynamic and not always inclusive. But racial/ethnic nationalism boggles my mind.

I believe ethnicity comes to be, at least on the more modern conceptions, something far deeper than ''which womb did you came out of?''.

Ethnicity is language, upbringing and common identity(with it's consecuences like behavior, outlook and general identification). What most nationalists fall for however is racial-nationalism, which is truly stupid as .

Since race, racial phenotypes, are proved to determine little or nothing at all in a subject's identity they have been dropped as a factor in determining ethnicity. What we are confusing in here though is national-identity with ethnic-identity, there's too little countries out there which hold a monolithic ethnic identity and most Modern States build their identity around a NATIONAL ONE, nationality is a more flexible, general and less christallized identity concept: it comes with living in a certain place, respecting it's laws and behaving by it's customs while institutionally and personally identifying with it. In countries like France for example there are many racists, which have their fair share of wacko nationalists in, who tend to confuse the 2... and believe there's a common french identity based on ethnicity, and that's simply not true.

[irontaino]

Ethnic nationalism? Kill it with fire!

[Ramashan]

I believe he means nationalism of one culture and one race. Stating that he's from Europe I believe he's saying that he'd prefer Germany for Germans and Italy for Italians and Spain for Spanish, if I understand his statement properly.

The unfortunate thing is, as history has proven, ethnicity is timely. People move about and 'ethnicity' changes. The Moores move into Persia, the Lombards move into Italy, the Visigoths move into Africa, the Saxons move into the British Islands, Spanish move into the Americas, the Apache move into Navajo land, the tribes of Aztla move into the lands of the Tepanec, all groups move and change and move out the old groups and new groups grow.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just how the world works. Only by finding some way to meld the groups can you survive the change at all. Not to be a 'ra ra American' but we've sort of done a decent job of melding cultures in order to create something new and unique. I admit, we've had our misteps and embarrasments along the way. We identify ourselves with our ethnic past as well as our regional place of birth and our nation. Our music, culture, and society is an almalgom of different cultural traits and ideas. So, you either accept change or are over run by it. One can still be German by nationality but Turkish by ethnicity. But each group needs to respect and accept the other.

[barbarossa pasha]

The more peculiar thing is people who believe in free markets and free trade but not free international movement of labour.

I sometimes find myself peculiarly feeling patriotic feelings, but in Canada it is fairly easy to get away from ethnic nationalism and most of the racism is directed at the native population rather than non-white immigrants.

[Col. Tartleton]

I think taking pride for the accomplishments of others is demented.

I don't feel pride in being American. I also don't feel shame for it. I don't know how I can feel shame for it either. That would also be demented.

I love America. I love America more than other countries. It has nothing to do with pride.

In Greek my feeling toward America is Storge. The love of familiarity.

What is the distinctively American Culture I love?

Scottish Enlightenment Philosophy
German Food
English Literature
A blend of British and African Folk Music
Prussian Virtues
Judeo-Christian Values
Private Enterprise

etc.

There's room for other things, but I think we Americans are essentially culturally an improvement of the British and the Germans with the more pleasant? vestiges of slavery influencing our music. By improvement I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just explaining why I prefer American culture to British and German culture even though they're related. Our blend seems pretty good. We eat a lot of British styled roast beef and German styled sausages. Of course our coleslaw is better than sauerkraut but I am a fan of English Breakfast Tea.

Now, perhaps because our culture is derived from primarily British and German sources I also feel an affinity for the North Europeans in general. I don't think that's unreasonable. It isn't because we all have such nice shiny white skin. It isn't nice, it scars easily and makes me worried about being outside too long.

So that doesn't mean that a Chinese person with Buddhist Philosophy, Szechuan Food, a love of the Chinese epics, an ear for the old world's pop scene, Confucian Values, etc. doesn't belong here, but they will be foreign and they will always be foreign if they don't make an effort to acclimatize themselves to our culture.

[barbarossa pasha]

Brown skin scars more easily than white. Durr...

[Enemy of the State]

I just keep my personal tastes and my politics seperate. As a liberal, I must advocate for free immigration. I do not necessarily want immigrants to flood my country, however. Of course, I doubt that would happen without a welfare state, but to be consistent I must advocate for open borders even before the welfare state is abolished. I still have nationalist feelings however. I want to remain Estonian, and I always will. I can't in good consience force others to do the same though.

[Dr. Croccer]

There's no such thing as 'Judaeo-Christian values'.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I'm a tad confused: The thread title says ethnic nationalism but your writing as if your advocating a mono culture, and while you may or may not be more predisposed towards one race over another [we all are, dont feel guilty it really doesnt matter] your issue is culture.

If you want a monocultural society I'd have to say liberalism is the greatest force to create that. With lower regulation and freerer the market, people will act as individuals- necessarily the best actions for an immigrant and their descendants is to learn the language, adopt the mores, dress, attitudes and sometimes even the name of the primary culture. Ironically individualism creates a form of collective homogeneity. Converse that with the typical leftwing state bribery, whatever the means-- be it the canadian model of sponsoring ethnic parades or the more american model of handing out legal/economic benefits to very specific groups in order to encourage a separate entity from the larger society, the results the same. Bigger Government divides the people by its nature, they want to do it.

If you are actually talking ethnic nationalism not specifically culture, i.e you are displeased even when British move to Ireland and assimilate, then yes, you are a racist, and your beliefs are contradictory.

Well I think I am talking about cultural nationalism. I'm welcoming to small number of foreign immigrants but not large scale immigration.

I'm fine with British people coming here, I mean our culture and population are already inseperably linked to the extent we are almost one nation.

However I am also not against immigrants from the rest of Europe even though they do a lot worse job assimilating than immigrants. A Dutch engineer lives near me, his children have Irish accents but will always be quick to point out they are Dutch. Children of Congolese and Pakistani parents go to the same school, identify as Irish and speak Irish better than I do. Yet for some reason I (and most other Irish people) are more willing to accept the former than the latter. It seems like racism to me.

It's not an Irish phenomenon, Europeans as a whole seem more accepting of other Europeans than foreign immigrants, despite European minorities often being the poorest at assimilating. There's a huge unassimilated British minority in Spain, many of them criminals, most of them hard partyers, and none of them able to speak Spanish. The Spanish don't seem to mind this. Like the rest of Europe they have far-right wingers trying to kick out people of a different colour who have Spanish accents and speak Spanish, but they are welcoming of the other Europeans who don't fit in at all.`

Here in Ireland there is no discrimination at all against Western Europeans, a small bit against Eastern Europeans and quite a lot against people from outside Europe. We don't have social or institutional problems with racism, but many Irish people are quite racist.


And I do not think I am predisposed to one race more than another. I have plenty of immigrant friends I am quite close to as much as my Irish friends. I'm just talking about my feelins on a national scale. In my personal life I am not racist at all. Perhaps you are a bit racist?

I don't understand ethnic nationalism, how are genes, complexion, and facial features anything to be proud of? Now being proud of your culture, I can understand, even though culture is dynamic and not always inclusive. But racial/ethnic nationalism boggles my mind.

What you must realise is I'm describing an extreme sentimental attachment I've acquired from my culture. There's no reason to it, I just have it. Pride isn't the right word, I'm not proud of my nation's history or people, I just have a sentimental attachment to them and have a huge desire to see them continue unchanged. I don't know why. And this isn't just a European thing. There's a similar sort of thing with pan-Arab nationalism. They are not as bothered by Arab immigrants as they are by immigrants from SE Asia.

I fail to see how it's contradictory. You don't want people to suffer abroad but you don't want your own country getting problems due to too many immigrants. They're not mutually exclusive, it's not like the only way to help them is inviting them over, far from it.

You want to help people in Africa? Send money to their governments, urge for less protectionism so that the farmers there can finally sell their crops to your market, get companies to open new franchises over there. It's a question of dealing with the root of the problem. You'll keep having a constant stream of immigrants if the countries they come from are just unliveable. By stabilizing those countries, the people can live happily and so can you. I mean, for 's sake, Ireland was pretty damn bad until a couple of decades ago. If the country didn't pull itself up by the bootstraps and modernized itself you'd still have a huge number of Irishmen trying to flee from it.

You are probably right you know. Discrimination against a group seems directly proportional to how many of them want to immigrate. Western Europeans or Americans coming here is just a lifestyle choice. Quite a lot of rich Americans retire here in big old medieval castles, and they're welcomed despite not assimilating greatly at all.

[Squiggle]

And I do not think I am predisposed to one race more than another. I have plenty of immigrant friends I am quite close to as much as my Irish friends. I'm just talking about my feelins on a national scale. In my personal life I am not racist at all. Perhaps you are a bit racist?

Every study shows we all are. The more racially diverse a neighborhood, the more people withdraw from it, the more dangerous they perceive it. Babies instinctively feel safer and pay more attention to those of the same race, the list goes on.

You *DO* prefer white people.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Every study shows we all are. The more racially diverse a neighborhood, the more people withdraw from it, the more dangerous they perceive it. Babies instinctively feel safer and pay more attention to those of the same race, the list goes on.

You *DO* prefer white people.

ok maybe there is some truth in that, I know all of tghe black guys doing engineering in my year at college hang out together outside of class...

[ShockBlast]

Every study shows we all are. The more racially diverse a neighborhood, the more people withdraw from it, the more dangerous they perceive it. Babies instinctively feel safer and pay more attention to those of the same race, the list goes on.

You *DO* prefer white people.

This.If we like it or not we are inclined to stick to our own people and I,as an European,feel that the national culture should be preserved.

Humans might be self-aware but we are still animals in a sense,we can`t ignore our own drives yet we should not let them control us.

Irelandeb your feelings are natural.

EU should do well to have a proper population policy in place soon because we aren`t USA,we aren`t a melting pot.Multiculturalism has been declared dead some time ago.