Pike and shot

[joex49]

anyy of you fellas know if the the pike and shot formation works? how do you set it up?

[Ichon]

It works quite well and many different ways to set it up. I find mixing in crossbow and handguns together works the best as crossbow have higher accuracy at medium/long range.

[joex49]

It works quite well and many different ways to set it up. I find mixing in crossbow and handguns together works the best as crossbow have higher accuracy at medium/long range.

i have no idea how to do it in the game. i mean, can you have a spear wall, and have a unit of firearm infantry firing at the same time? or do you fire and run behind the pike wall and just wait?

[GuineaPig]

If you're fighting against the AI, it's the best. It allows you to take very little casualties while winning huge victories.

My typical setup is general (with high dread), 6 pikes, 4 arqs/muskets, 3 heavy cav, 2 heavy infantry, 2 ribaults, 2 field guns.



It's best to set up around some elevation change, because you want your gunmen to be able to fire over your pikes. If not, you'll have to hold them in reserve and then spring them around the enemy's flanks, while keeping pikes close by to defend against enemy cav. Your ribaults should be able to fire from protection, and never face enemies in hand-to-hand combat. Turn them off auto-fire, because otherwise they will chew up your own troops. Just use them to fire straight down your battle line when the enemy engages, and they'll be the most efficient killers in your army. Should rack up 200+ kills per unit, and sometimes in larger battles I've killed as much as 800 with a single unit of ribaults. You might also have to experiment with placing your field guns if the elevation doesn't offer any good places, and subsequently experiment how you deploy troops to defend them. They can always be abandoned, then reclaimed and wheeled to fire straight into the enemy's flank.

Essentially, unless your army is starving or your general has tons of terrible traits, you should never lose with this formation unless you're outnumbered 3 to 1 or more. I usually take less than 20% casualties in my battles, even when badly outnumbered.

[joex49]

If you're fighting against the AI, it's the best. It allows you to take very little casualties while winning huge victories.

My typical setup is general (with high dread), 6 pikes, 4 arqs/muskets, 3 heavy cav, 2 heavy infantry, 2 ribaults, 2 field guns.



It's best to set up around some elevation change, because you want your gunmen to be able to fire over your pikes. If not, you'll have to hold them in reserve and then spring them around the enemy's flanks, while keeping pikes close by to defend against enemy cav. Your ribaults should be able to fire from protection, and never face enemies in hand-to-hand combat. Turn them off auto-fire, because otherwise they will chew up your own troops. Just use them to fire straight down your battle line when the enemy engages, and they'll be the most efficient killers in your army. Should rack up 200+ kills per unit, and sometimes in larger battles I've killed as much as 800 with a single unit of ribaults. You might also have to experiment with placing your field guns if the elevation doesn't offer any good places, and subsequently experiment how you deploy troops to defend them. They can always be abandoned, then reclaimed and wheeled to fire straight into the enemy's flank.

Essentially, unless your army is starving or your general has tons of terrible traits, you should never lose with this formation unless you're outnumbered 3 to 1 or more. I usually take less than 20% casualties in my battles, even when badly outnumbered.

very nice bro. really informational. but i want a formation that will allow my musketeers o shoot at the enemy while the pikemen hold the enemy in place. sort of like this
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the first row of ^ is the first row the ppike men.(the line that has the men crouched in the ground, while the 'I' is the first row of musketeers(both pike and musket men are staked). so far ive tried it, but the enemy almost always penetrate the pike wall and force the musketmen to go into melee(im using Tercio pikemen). is there anyway to improve this formation? because there wont always be a hill in every battle. im always the one attacking too.

[Dantman40]

A pike unit should never be used by itself. Here is how I set up a pike and shot formation. First chose a pikemen unit and a missile unit to be welded into 1 composite unit. While you could use archers, I believe that since they can shoot over the heads of other units, and do not require a direct line of sight, that would be a waste. I use gunpowder infantry or crossbowmen. Arbelasters, pavaise crossbowmen, and handgunners are especially good, as they have high defense, and can fight in melee reasonably well. Fighting with pikemen in close support makes them even more effective. High quality javelinmen also work.



Choose the 2 units you are going to combine and place them near each other. Select the pike unit and set it in the desired number of ranks. I like 6 or 8. Remember that 3 ranks of pikemen fight at the same time, so if casualties reduce them to less than 3 ranks, their fighting ability will fall dramatically. If you use dragging to set their formation, you will have to first turn off spearwall, so remember to turn it back on. Now put them on guard mode. When halted, the first rank of pikemen will kneel, allowing direct line of sight missile troops to shoot over their heads.



Now select the missile unit. Remember that only the first 2 ranks can fire. Take them off skirmish mode and on to guard mode. If you are short on missile troops, you could put them in 2 ranks. But as they take casualties their firepower will fall off fast. I prefer to set their formation so that it is just a little shorter than the pike unit. This usually puts them 3 or 4 ranks deep. This will allow men to move up and replace loses, as guard mode will make them maintain formation, keeping their firepower up. It will also allow at least some of them to keep shooting when the unit is in melee, like any missiles in guard mode.


Now select both units and group them. Set them to the double line formation. The point is that the game will align them perfectly.

Take the missile unit and carefully move it over the pike unit until the first rank of missiles is directly in front of the first rank of pikemen. The first (kneeling) rank of pikemen should be exactly in between the first 2 ranks of missile. Ungroup the 2 units and then re group them. The game engine will remember their positions and move them as a single unit. This is the time to rotate the unit, if needed. The 2 components will not march at the exact same speed, so it is best to march them in short stretches.



The composite unit should usually be kept in guard mode, and receive charges braced. The missile unit will be able to do at least some shooting while in melee, and this point blank fire often routs enemy units. If you take the pike unit off guard mode while in melee, the first rank of pikemen will stand up, blocking the second missile rank from shooting. Also the pikemen will move forward past the missile troops, blocking their fire. If you take the missile troops off guard they will stop trying to shoot and just melee. Not usually desirable.




You can use the same method of setting up a composite unit to create a pike/halberd unit, with the first rank of halberds just in front of the pikes. Great for killing cavalry. Or you can use any heavy infantry to make a pseudo tercio. You can do the same thing with shock infantry, like two handed swordsmen, in imitation of the Landsknechts. Since they have bonuses against pikes, this is great against enemy pikemen, as in history.



You can make a classic Swiss Pike Square by stacking 2 pike units. They don't have to be so carefully positioned. This is especially good for attacking. Since the 2 component units are identical and move at the same speed, it will not come apart while advancing. You can make a true Spanish Tercio using this method by adding a third component unit. Sword and buckler men (historical) or any heavy infantry. Place the swordsmen just behind, touching the pikemen.



When the lines are about to clash, pull the missile unit back (or allow it to skirmish back) and send the swordsmen forward through the pike line, guard mode off. They will even get the charge bonus. At this point you can probably take the pikemen off guard mode, since they aren't protecting the missiles any more. Remember that pikemen kill a lot faster off of guard, but they die faster too. You have to make the decision whether you want your pikemen to do the killing (and dieing) or hold the enemy in place for some other unit to take on. Rememder that these dense composite units are VERY vulnerable to artillery.



I prefer to use a battle line of 3 or 4 of these composite units, with cavalry and skirmishers in support. These methods are a bit complex, and need to be practiced in custom battles, but they are very rewarding, productive, and historically accurate.

[joex49]

now i see why my musketeers always go into melee right away. heres how my formation looks like.


do the swordsmen stop enemy units from breaking the formations of the pikemen, thus disrupting the fire of the musketmen?

[joex49]

now i see why my musketeers always go into melee right away. heres how my formation looks like.


do the swordsmen stop enemy units from breaking the formations of the pikemen, thus disrupting the fire of the musketmen?

oops forgot pic.
a

[dafuu]

If you're fighting against the AI, it's the best. It allows you to take very little casualties while winning huge victories.

My typical setup is general (with high dread), 6 pikes, 4 arqs/muskets, 3 heavy cav, 2 heavy infantry, 2 ribaults, 2 field guns.



It's best to set up around some elevation change, because you want your gunmen to be able to fire over your pikes. If not, you'll have to hold them in reserve and then spring them around the enemy's flanks, while keeping pikes close by to defend against enemy cav. Your ribaults should be able to fire from protection, and never face enemies in hand-to-hand combat. Turn them off auto-fire, because otherwise they will chew up your own troops. Just use them to fire straight down your battle line when the enemy engages, and they'll be the most efficient killers in your army. Should rack up 200+ kills per unit, and sometimes in larger battles I've killed as much as 800 with a single unit of ribaults. You might also have to experiment with placing your field guns if the elevation doesn't offer any good places, and subsequently experiment how you deploy troops to defend them. They can always be abandoned, then reclaimed and wheeled to fire straight into the enemy's flank.

Essentially, unless your army is starving or your general has tons of terrible traits, you should never lose with this formation unless you're outnumbered 3 to 1 or more. I usually take less than 20% casualties in my battles, even when badly outnumbered.

I might be dumb, but dosent the gunpowder welding unit shoot the pikemen in their backs when the enemy approaches? and how do you use your heavy inf, if enemy comes in from the back or? Does the enemy in this picture come from north and down or from south and up instead?

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Wow, that formation looks really interesting, probably best to be used with Scotland, good thing im playing with them right now, i will defineatly put this formation to the test when i got that far(im playing early campaign and im only at turn 68, only managed to get to any decent cav few turn before, by getting my first fortress).

Are there any earlier substitutes for this formation? they would obviously replace the musketeers with archers or crossbows, the field guns would be mongonels, trebuchets or catapults and maybe the ribaults can be replaced with ballistas? At the turn 68 i also dont have any pikes yet, can anyone tell me when i can get my hands on some? Obviously there have to be some discoveries made.

Anyway, + rep for that nice formation!

[GuineaPig]

Are there any earlier substitutes for this formation? they would obviously replace the musketeers with archers or crossbows, the field guns would be mongonels, trebuchets or catapults and maybe the ribaults can be replaced with ballistas? At the turn 68 i also dont have any pikes yet, can anyone tell me when i can get my hands on some? Obviously there have to be some discoveries made.

Anyway, + rep for that nice formation!

The idea of the formation really is to scare the hell out of the enemy while using pikes to hold them off from hand-to-hand combat. This essentially allows one to win battles while only taking minimal losses (at least amongst important units).

So an early alternative would be a bunch of spear militia in schiltron formation, backed up by mangonels firing right over their heads (devastating to morale), and archers firing fire arrows. One would then use heavy infantry and cavalry only to launch flank attacks on demoralized units, or perhaps to deal with enemy bodyguards/breakthroughs in the line.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

The idea of the formation really is to scare the hell out of the enemy while using pikes to hold them off from hand-to-hand combat. This essentially allows one to win battles while only taking minimal losses (at least amongst important units).

So an early alternative would be a bunch of spear militia in schiltron formation, backed up by mangonels firing right over their heads (devastating to morale), and archers firing fire arrows. One would then use heavy infantry and cavalry only to launch flank attacks on demoralized units, or perhaps to deal with enemy bodyguards/breakthroughs in the line.

I figured it would be a morale dropping formation, problem is that the spearmen in schiltron take up little space, so i would need loads of them to make it work, probably would be better to just leave them in regular formation with guard mode on so they dont break while the siege engines work their magic

[Duck of Death]

Bah... the "pike and shot" is ok but, I find the "taunt and launch" far more effective.

If you're defending in a siege, let the advancing army get within ear-shot and then give them a vicious taunting!
Im talk about "your momma is so..." and "your father smelt of..." and so forth.

They may attempt to use a siege weapon against you after this. It may be ladders or a ram, or it may be in the form of a large woodland creature.
This is where the "launch" portion of your strategy comes into play. When they get close, open the gates and let the behemoth through. THEN... slam the gate shut and load it into your oversized catapult.

Once the enemy sees thier own weapon flying back at them over the wall they will, in all likelyhood, run away.

Heroic victory is now yours.

[Conqistador]

Bah... the "pike and shot" is ok but, I find the "taunt and launch" far more effective.

If you're defending in a siege, let the advancing army get within ear-shot and then give them a vicious taunting!
Im talk about "your momma is so..." and "your father smelt of..." and so forth.

They may attempt to use a siege weapon against you after this. It may be ladders or a ram, or it may be in the form of a large woodland creature.
This is where the "launch" portion of your strategy comes into play. When they get close, open the gates and let the behemoth through. THEN... slam the gate shut and load it into your oversized catapult.

Once the enemy sees thier own weapon flying back at them over the wall they will, in all likelyhood, run away.

Heroic victory is now yours.

Seems like a good tactic, if only i've understood what you said... Can you explain again?

[Duck of Death]

Seems like a good tactic, if only i've understood what you said... Can you explain again?

Nah man... it was a joke

[TWWolfe]

Nah man... it was a joke

I'm still wondering how you got those bloody coconuts!

And you forgot to mention that the large woodland creatures, like witches, will likely be made of wood!

[alis_sakfok]

I don't understand the point of putting ranges close to infantry either. My armies usually take up a lot of space, and I normally leave some area between units (so advancing armies wouldn't be able to reach my ranges but so units still wouldn't be put way too close together). Archers/crossbowmen/gunners are put on the highest possible position, heavy infantry is on the flank (normally it's when the enemy charges into spears I just take my infantry out and attack the enemy's backs while the spears hold them). Cavalry is on the flanks too, but slightly further away from the rest of the army for some maneuvers (destroying artillery and stuff). I've been using this formation since Rome: Total War and it worked fine almost all the time, but requires units with heavy armor in the front. If needed, it can be transformed into an attacking formation by turning the side spearmen 45 degrees upwards (so they'd be able to surround the enemy).

[TheUnamusinGamer]

Personally, I don't believe there is any magical formation that turns "pike and shot" into a late medieval superweapon.
Also, it just wasn't.

Up until 17th century, when "pike and shot" manipular formations were in vogue, the large majority of the foot soldiers in an army were not aquebusiers, as arquebuses were far from being an extremely lethal weapon on the battlefield. It was not expected to cause massive casualties, but offered a great tactical advantage for being able to penetrate armour at medium ranges.

See, when it comes down to it, what you really got are pikemen whose job it is to come between the enemy cavalry and your softer, more vulnerable troops such as aquebusiers and swordsmen.

That said, no one expects aquebusiers to stand in formation amongst pikemen while being charged. Especting aquebusiers to fire while standing in the middle of a chaotic pike melee is a little ludicrous. They take point in order to fire off a few volleys, forcing the enemy to advance or retreat, then RETREAT behind heavier infantry for protection as needed.
Elevated positions that provide line of sight are great when it comes to a purely ranged engagement, as they provide oportunity for multiple line fire. Firing into a melee from such a position, however, is bound to cause friendly casualties.

What I'm getting at here is that both pikes and early firearms were used tactically, and were not expected to win battles by themselfes. The particular weapon system was not as decisive as you may think.
Battlefield positioning, and mobility was key, as well as countless other variables that end up creating the outcome of a particular scenario.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

As far as I understand it, most pike and shot battles actually involved protracted shootouts and skirmishing. I rather have the impression, contrary to theUnamusingGamer, that there was not much mobility or manouevering, besides maybe with the cavalry. The pikemen were slow to move and the Spanish tertios so cumbersome, they could only move a few meters a minute in formation. In later periods, they had to move in pace with their shot, who fired by rank and could march forward, with every rank ready to fire from the back moving to the front in rotation. But such progress down the battlefield was bound to be slow. So the arquebusiers and later the musketeers had their chances.

The style of "manipular" formations were the main point of tactical debate, i.e. which formation would work best in such a static form of warfare. Many battles were fought in the open seemingly just based on this or that pike & shot formation.

I have made some videoclips demonstrating the use of traditional pike and shot formations (Spanish, Dutch, German and Swedish), mainly from the 16th and 17th centuries, at least such formations as I could find in books. Because of some differences between actual warfare and m2tw mechanics, you will have to experiment and adapt these formations, but even using them like that and even without giving them any commands, they can achieve victories against the AI, which really tells you something.

What I find disappointing myself is that it is impossible to get the AI to also fight in pike and shot formations. I have spent a lot of time messing around with the battle AI without joy.

It is not necessary to form squares and such, as suggested by some of the posts, e.g. by Guinea pig, unless you are outnumbered or the computer player has a lot of cavalry. In most cases some cavalry mixed with infantry at the flanks will stop any ideas of the AI trying to outflank you, especially if you have a full stack with an extended front. So you can bear the full complement of your shot straight at the advancing AI army.

In this page you can find some video demonstrations of traditional pike and shot formations from other mods, not Stainless Steel. On the next page there are some examples from Stainless Steel custom battles using m2tw-adapted variants of the Spanish tertio formation (stretched out sideways compared to normal historical formations). They are fairly standard deployments and do terrifically well. In Stainless Steel, any pike and shot formation can be devastating, you would not need the later German or Swedish formations. It is obviously better if you can have an elevation advantage so that extra shot units can fire over the heads of the pikemen, if you have too many shot. The AI cannot get easily clear lines of sight for its shot and rocket artillery, while the pikemen and melee units tend to get too much in the way. This messes things up badly for the computer player as you can imagine, with predictable results. The lower missile strength of arquebusiers and musketeers in other mods (usually in the 7-14 range) makes the end result look less heroic. But late SS6.4 musketeers can get 22 or even 32 missile strength, and a few companies of these can rip through any army.

[GuineaPig]

It is not necessary to form squares and such, as suggested by some of the posts, e.g. by Guinea pig, unless you are outnumbered or the computer player has a lot of cavalry. In most cases some cavalry mixed with infantry at the flanks will stop any ideas of the AI trying to outflank you, especially if you have a full stack with an extended front. So you can bear the full complement of your shot straight at the advancing AI army.

The idea of my formation wasn't to protect the flanks, the idea was to maximize the killing power of your best units (ribaults), also having the effect of completely destroying morale. A standard deployment has far less firepower because of the lack of protected enfilade positions for artillery.