Archer fire-arc

**cenkiss** · July 31, 2012, 08:48 AM

In shogun 2,archers had a frontal arc,they had to turn back as a unit to fire at their back which i find ridiculous.They should be able to shoot at every direction they can.

**krisslanza** · July 31, 2012, 08:54 AM

Isn't this how it's always worked? The unit had to move as a unit - you couldn't somehow move Roman Archers to shoot in front of them, and then ask the backrow to turn around and shoot behind them or something.

**Blatta Optima Maxima** · July 31, 2012, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Isn't this how it's always worked? The unit had to move as a unit - you couldn't somehow move Roman Archers to shoot in front of them, and then ask the backrow to turn around and shoot behind them or something.

No, actually. Skirmishers usually did not operate in units when, well, skirmishing. They'd only need to line up in order to release concentrated volleys, which is far from the only job for skirmishers.

**Lord Baal** · July 31, 2012, 08:57 AM

This has plagued total war games forever. Archer units needs to turn around 180° in order to shoot the other direction, instead of each soldier quickly turning 180° in the spot.

**Prnn** · July 31, 2012, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Baal

This has plagued total war games forever. Archer units needs to turn around 180° in order to shoot the other direction, instead of each soldier quickly turning 180° in the spot.

Horse archers dispute this.

**Lord Baal** · July 31, 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Prnn

Horse archers dispute this.

I beg to differ. Horse archers have the same arch of fire, just move a lot quicker.

Archers where taught to shoot in volleys to increase the possibilities of hitting something, kind of like the latter costume of whole lines firing muskets at the same time for the same reason.

If the archers where good enough and the enemy close enough they could take individual shoots.

And yes, the game threat the whole formation in a very rigid way, the soldiers in the left have to be always on the left and so on, so it turns the whole dam unit 180°.

**Prnn** · July 31, 2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Baal

I beg to differ. Horse archers have the same arch of fire, just move a lot quicker.

Archers where taught to shoot in volleys to increase the possibilities of hitting something, kind of like the latter costume of whole lines firing muskets at the same time for the same reason.

If the archers where good enough and the enemy close enough they could take individual shoots.

And yes, the game threat the whole formation in a very rigid way, the soldiers in the left have to be always on the left and so on, so it turns the whole dam unit 180°.

Horse archers had a 360° firing arc and could shoot while moving.

**krisslanza** · July 31, 2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Baal

This has plagued total war games forever. Archer units needs to turn around 180° in order to shoot the other direction, instead of each soldier quickly turning 180° in the spot.

I think that's because the game treats all units as a formation/group of soldiers. It doesn't count them as individuals, so in order for a ranged unit to fire all the units have to be facing the same way, not just a few of them.

Although I guess horse archers are different. Also aren't archers taught to fire as a group anyway? It would seem to break unit cohesion if they would just start firing individually, they're taught to fire as a volley.

**HappyGoodVibes** · July 31, 2012, 09:49 AM

Good catch OP, the ground archers shouldn't have to turn like they do when you want them to hit something. I have often found that the time it takes them to turn allows for the enemy to close on them and kill them. This illustrates a problem with formations too, I can't say how many times the army will completely reverse it's entire layout to turn around or something like that. Groups of soldiers need to find the shortest and easiest way to re-form their formations. As it is, the computer decides to count each unit in the formation as having to exist in that exact spot, so when you decide to turn a whole army, you can end up with the left wing moving to where the right wing used to be simply for the sake of keeping those units in the spots they are supposed to be mathematically from the computer's point of view.

If [12345] was a formation, and you turn it around backwards, it would deploy as [54321]. In order to do that, the units all cross each other in the middle and it is completely unnecessary, especially considering that turning the line around should really just cause every soldier to literally face the other direction. They don't even need to move!

I don't exactly know how to describe it, but the blocks of soldiers are more like blocks and less like soldiers. CA should try to make them more like soldiers and less like blocks.

**~~weirdoascensor~~** · July 31, 2012, 09:51 AM

actually in warscape TW a little tweak in battle_entity could avert this...two column for each entity...
So now its about historicity...and CAs decision...

**Lord Baal** · July 31, 2012, 10:21 AM

Have you played shogun 2 lately my friend? And yes, they are supposed to fire on the move, that's kind of one of the practical uses of those kind of soldiers.

**Prnn** · August 01, 2012, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Baal

Have you played shogun 2 lately my friend? And yes, they are supposed to fire on the move, that's kind of one of the practical uses of those kind of soldiers.

Have you played previous total war games, ever?
Horse archers almost broke Rome and Medieval 2 because of these capabilities.

**Kinjo** · July 31, 2012, 10:24 AM

Horse archers had a firing arch as well in shogun 2.

**Lord Baal** · August 01, 2012, 09:40 AM

Yes, I have, heavily, since Shogun 1 for that matter. Again, have you played or at least saw some Shogun 2 gameplay?
In shogun 2 they have no longer that ability. Are you telling me that since Rome 2 is going back to Rome they will make the horse archers 360° turrets again?