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  1. #1

    Default Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Pretty interesting stuff here that just came out. Personally, I was always more in favor of spending money on adapting drones and upgrading legacy fighters for air superiority than buying the new 5th gen fighters. They tend to be too expensive, too few, and far too unreliable in the sense the military throws all its investment, research, and capability into one basket (which inevitably ends up being a money pit for the military IC). Someone needs to send a memo to Panetta for the next defense budget.

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/

    How to Defeat the Air Force’s Powerful Stealth Fighter
    By David Axe
    July 30, 2012 |

    The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009.

    Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots.

    In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.

    The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”

    Gruene said the Raptor excels at fighting from beyond visual range with its high speed and altitude, sophisticated radar and long-range AMRAAM missiles. But in a slower, close-range tangle — which pilots call a “merge” — the bigger and heavier F-22 is at a disadvantage. “As soon as you get to the merge … the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22,” Gruene said.

    This is not supposed to be the sort of reaction the F-22 inspires. For years the Air Force has billed the Raptor as an unparalleled aerial combatant. Even former Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who in 2009 famously cut F-22 production to just 187 copies, called the stealth jet “far and away the best air-to-air fighter ever produced” and predicted “it will ensure U.S. command of the skies for the next generation.” And it’s slowly getting taken off the probation it incurred after seemingly suffocating pilots.

    Admittedly, advanced air forces plan to do most of their fighting at long range and avoid the risky, close-in tangle — something Gruene acknowledged in his comments to Combat Aircraft. But there’s evidence that, in reality, most air combat occurs at close distance, despite air arms’ wishful thinking. That could bode poorly for the F-22′s chances in a future conflict.

    In a 2008 study (big file!), the Air Force-funded think tank RAND warned against assuming long-range missiles will work. RAND looked at 588 air-to-air shoot-downs since the 1950s and counted just 24 that occurred with the attacker firing from beyond visual range. Historically, American long-range air-to-air missiles have been 90-percent less effective than predicted, RAND asserted.

    Despite the historical facts, there persists in Air Force circles “a hypothetical vision of ultra-long range, radar-based, air-to-air combat,” to quote air power skeptic Pierre Sprey, co-designer of the brute-simple F-16 and A-10 warplanes.

    It remains to be seen whether the Raptor and its AMRAAM missiles can reverse these trends. If long-range tactics fail, the F-22 force could very well find itself fighting up close with the latest fighters from China, Russia and other rival nations. And if the Germans’ experience is any indication, that’s the kind of battle the vaunted F-22s just might lose.
    Last edited by Lebron James; July 30, 2012 at 09:54 PM.


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  2. #2
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    The F-22 isn't designed for WWII or Vietnam era dogfights.

    We've always known that.

    In dogfights it is far better to have alot of cheaper aircraft. This goes for the Typhoon too.

    EDIT: In fact, drones would be best suited for close range dogfights, namely since they can pull of insane maneuvers that human-piloted planes can't, they're cheap, and they're expendable.
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; July 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    The F-22 isn't designed for WWII or Vietnam era dogfights.

    We've always known that.

    In dogfights it is far better to have alot of cheaper aircraft. This goes for the Typhoon too.

    EDIT: In fact, drones would be best suited for close range dogfights, namely since they can pull of insane maneuvers that human-piloted planes can't, they're cheap, and they're expendable.
    Presumably that's what the F-35 is for, and what the F-16 was for when the F-15 was the latest fighter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    EDIT: ...and the quality of the missiles carried. That's why I STILL believe that missile targetting and missile interception technology ought to be the KEY technologies studies by the US military.
    The US air force won't be making this terrible mistake again, Vietnam and the figher mafia have taught them a tough lesson. The F-22 is actually designed to be quite a capable dogfighter while also having the BVR advantage. It's smaller than the F-15, although the Typhoon is smaller again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caelius View Post
    In real life there never would've been a WVR merge. The Germans would've been shot down.
    Being targeted is expected. Being hit is another thing entirely, and BVR missiles in particular are easier to avoid and less reliable than other missiles. I'm sure in any modern engagement a high percentage of aircraft would be shot down by BVR missiles, but I can't imagine that number being greater than 50% despite not knowing the statistics. Unless you have some studies you'd like to link to...
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; July 31, 2012 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    Presumably that's what the F-35 is for, and what the F-16 was for when the F-15 was the latest fighter.
    The F-35 shouldn't be used in close range dogfights either. Way too risky to put such an expensive machine in that situation.

    The US air force won't be making this terrible mistake again, Vietnam and the figher mafia have taught them a tough lesson. The F-22 is actually designed to be quite a capable dogfighter while also having the BVR advantage. It's smaller than the F-15, although the Typhoon is smaller again.
    It certainly is a capable dogfighter, and the EF is nearly as good a close-range dogfighter.

    But where it shines is BVR, as it was designed.

    Being targeted is expected. Being hit is another thing entirely, and BVR missiles in particular are easier to avoid and less reliable than other missiles. I'm sure in any modern engagement a high percentage of aircraft would be shot down by BVR missiles, but I can't imagine that number being greater than 50% despite not knowing the statistics. Unless you have some studies you'd like to link to...
    My post is meant to highlight that the effectiveness of missiles is a large factor in how effective the planes are.

    That's why I'm saying we should focus on this technology. Mastering long-range missiles and missile interception would make us very difficult to beat in a conventional war.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  5. #5

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    The F-35 shouldn't be used in close range dogfights either. Way too risky to put such an expensive machine in that situation.
    Then what is the point of developing the F-35? For multi-role capabilities?
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Then what is the point of developing the F-35? For multi-role capabilities?
    I'm not an expert, but the F-35 looks to be useful primarily for supporting other forces. There's no reason to throw the most expensive fighter jet in the world into a close-range dogfight, it's so risky. Why not a dozen F-16s instead?
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  7. #7

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    It seems the spirit of Goebbels is alive and well.

  8. #8
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Oh God, who cares?

  9. #9
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Oh God, who cares?
    Well, we should, it is our money and the future of our national defense.

    Fact of the matter remains that these planes ARE the greatest air superiority fighters in the world. Their only major limitation is how many missiles they can carry.

    EDIT: ...and the quality of the missiles carried. That's why I STILL believe that missile targetting and missile interception technology ought to be the KEY technologies studies by the US military.
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; July 30, 2012 at 10:15 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  10. #10

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Well, we should, it is our money and the future of our national defense.

    Fact of the matter remains that these planes ARE the greatest air superiority fighters in the world. Their only major limitation is how many missiles they can carry.

    EDIT: ...and the quality of the missiles carried. That's why I STILL believe that missile targetting and missile interception technology ought to be the KEY technologies studies by the US military.
    You're right but its also about how much we can spend on them... right now an F-22 goes for $300 million a pop and RAND did a study in 2008 that said we simply would not have enough of them (and tankers) to fend off China in a Pacific airwar. Imagine the costs and political consequences too if we lost just one F-22.

    I like UCAVs too. You still have to worry about G-forces, even airframes have a stress limit, but the work their doing right now with UAV swarms seems pretty promising.

    Overall, I like the USAF's BVR doctrine, long range missiles seem to be the future, but you got to wonder what happens in the event no one risks turning on their radar. This seems to be the bet the Russians are playing with IRST, 3D thrust vectoring, off bore sight missiles, and the highly maneuverable Sukhois.
    Last edited by Lebron James; July 30, 2012 at 10:36 PM.


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  11. #11

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    It seems the spirit of Goebbels is alive and well.
    Inevitable Nazi-referece when mentioning current Germany - #1.
    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Just let me know when to bring up Hitler.
    Inevitable Nazi-referece when mentioning current Germany - #2.

    Ok, they are funny, but daft at the same time...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lebron James View Post
    You're right but its also about how much we can spend on them... right now an F-22 goes for $300 million a pop and RAND did a study in 2008 that said we simply would not have enough of them (and tankers) to fend off China in a Pacific airwar. Imagine the costs and political consequences too if we lost just one F-22.

    I like UCAVs too. You still have to worry about G-forces, even airframes have a stress limit, but the work their doing right now with UAV swarms seems pretty promising.

    Overall, I like the USAF's BVR doctrine, long range missiles seem to be the future, but you got to wonder what happens in the event no one risks turning on their radar. This seems to be the bet the Russians are playing with IRST, 3D thrust vectoring, off bore sight missiles, and the highly maneuverable Sukhois.
    What will really happen in a 'real' war (ie. high-tech vs. high-tech; and not high-tech vs. mere Taliban - which could easily be obliterated in a 'destrution'-war). No one knows, as nobody has experienced such a 3.WW. But focsiung on the long-range capability of fighter-yets seems plausible. But it may be wrong...
    Last edited by Qasper; July 30, 2012 at 10:52 PM.

  12. #12
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Lebron James View Post
    You're right but its also about how much we can spend on them... right now an F-22 goes for $300 million a pop and RAND did a study in 2008 that said we simply would not have enough of them (and tankers) to fend off China in a Pacific airwar. Imagine the costs and political consequences too if we lost just one F-22.
    $150 million a pop flyaway costs, which is what matters at this point.

    The point isn't to have enough of them to win a war on a dime, just enough to push off an attack so that more can be manufactured.

    And that study sounds like absolute crap. Is RAND trying to figure out if we could fend off an attack with nothing but F-22s?

    Overall, I like the USAF's BVR doctrine, long range missiles seem to be the future, but you got to wonder what happens when no one turns on their radar.
    Depends on what you're fighting. A Typhoon can be spotted pretty easily with it's radar off. No one else in the world is very advanced in stealth technology. Still, it's only a matter of shooting them first, even if not at the range you'd like.

    This seems to be the bet the Russians are playing with IRST, 3D thrust vectoring, off bore sight missiles, and the highly maneuverable Sukhois.
    ...which can be destroyed by a small swarm of F-16s or drones.

    Trying to make fifth-generation dogfighters is a waste. There are only so many limits you can push in terms of maneuverability, toughness, and armaments.
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; July 30, 2012 at 10:43 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    HissingNewt's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Lebron James View Post
    You're right but its also about how much we can spend on them... right now an F-22 goes for $300 million a pop and RAND did a study in 2008 that said we simply would not have enough of them (and tankers) to fend off China in a Pacific airwar. Imagine the costs and political consequences too if we lost just one F-22.
    I don't think China has the capability to project power across the Pacific like we do. Don't they have like one aircraft carrier that was built by Russia years ago that they refurbished? America on the other hand has multiple carriers and bases in quite a few countries (I would guess the Philippines has a base and I know there are some in Japan). Unless I'm missing something here, China would not be able to compete with the US in an air war.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Oh God, who cares?
    Grab some popcorn, you are about to find out.

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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Oh God, who cares?
    Because this obviously means Iran's air force will wipe the floor with the Americans.



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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Because this obviously means Iran's air force will wipe the floor with the Americans.



    F-22's won't fly alone in the case of a war. There will be other supporting aircrafts.

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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    F-22's won't fly alone in the case of a war. There will be other supporting aircrafts.
    He's joking, but you're correct, which is alot of why these concerns are simply nonsensical. If you're going to get into a close-range dogfight, get your fifth-gen fighters out of there.

    An F-16 costs a tenth of one, and would perform nearly as well in such a scenario. Who knows where drone technology will go.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Just let me know when to bring up Hitler.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    It seems the spirit of Goebbels is alive and well.
    Inevitable Nazi-referece when mentioning current Germany - #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Just let me know when to bring up Hitler.
    Inevitable Nazi-referece when mentioning current Germany - #2.


  20. #20
    Holger Danske's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Germans Defeat F-22s at Red Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Just let me know when to bring up Hitler.
    or Greece, or Serbia...

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