Teleportation problems

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Let's say we take a human being and completely break them down to whatever particles of matter is appropriate for teleportation. Then we move that matter and energy someplace else (or get different matter and energy from someplace else), and reassemble it into their body exactly as before. What would have happened to the person.

EDIT: Actually, this is an impossible question that might as well be deleted or moved to the EMM...

[Sphere]

Pattern Buffers ...

Heisenburg compensators ...

Profit ...

[Phier]

Recall the TNG episode where they had two Rikers due to a transporter error.

The extra one then went on to have his own career. They never mentioned how Thanks Giving would work at home after that though...

[NikeBG]

[MathiasOfAthens]

The one thing I dont get is when your broken down and transported does the original copy cease to exist. The conciousness. So me as a person right now, do I cease to exist if I was transported? And a copy goes on to live my life? The TNG episode with Riker kinda claims this with the copy. So it wasnt one copy of Riker but two copies. The original is dead? Then there are copies of those copies and so forth every time they used he transporter.

[Sphere]

The one thing I dont get is when your broken down and transported does the original copy cease to exist. The conciousness. So me as a person right now, do I cease to exist if I was transported? And a copy goes on to live my life? The TNG episode with Riker kinda claims this with the copy. So it wasnt one copy of Riker but two copies. The original is dead? Then there are copies of those copies and so forth every time they used he transporter.

Like all TNG technology, it can do whatever the plot requires.

IIRC, the transporters are supposed to use massive amounts of short term memory banks which can only hold a persons pattern for a few seconds. This means they cannot be used as "save points" whereby you could simply rebuild a person's pattern if they were to die (that would rather dull the danger of away missions).

But then we have Scotty keeping himself alive for 80 years on a stricken ship by storing his pattern in the transporter system. There is also the episode with Lt. Barkley finding survivors of a damaged ship traped in the transporters. We also have the above mentioned duplication of Riker, not to mention the whole replicator system which seems more than capable of storing untold atomic recipes with ease.

In short the transporters in TNG are as highly limited or as highly flexible as needed.

[The Useless Member]

Just your body being broken apart...

That must hurt.

[Nikitn]

The one thing I dont get is when your broken down and transported does the original copy cease to exist. The conciousness. So me as a person right now, do I cease to exist if I was transported? And a copy goes on to live my life? The TNG episode with Riker kinda claims this with the copy. So it wasnt one copy of Riker but two copies. The original is dead? Then there are copies of those copies and so forth every time they used he transporter.

Well, I believe you lose consciousness every time you go to bed. So while I agree it might be weird, I don't think it technically would be any different being teleported from falling asleep. You lose consciousness for a given amount of time in both cases.

[Phier]

Well, I believe you lose consciousness every time you go to bed. So while I agree it might be weird, I don't think it technically would be any different being teleported from falling asleep. You lose consciousness for a given amount of time in both cases.

I might lose consciousness but my mind is still very active. You don't die when you go to sleep. I'm not replaced with a duplicate me when my alarm goes off.

[visser300]

So basically they destroy you and make a copy then moving that copy to a distance, eh?

Then I will say no. It against the will of god.

[Nikitn]

I was wrong/unlcear when saying they were technically the same, but for the person involved it would feel the same suddenly falling asleep in spot A b4 waking up in spot B, as teleporting from A to B.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I was wrong/unlcear when saying they were technically the same, but for the person involved it would feel the same falling asleep in spot A and waking up in spot B, as teleporting from A to B.

Unfortunately even the humans who eventually use teleportation will never know. At least, I can't think of any way of knowing.

[Nikitn]

How would one know one isn't being destroyed and re-established at speed that it isn't possible for the brain to detect the interlapses?

Anyway, I definitely know from experience that passing out and waking up somewhere else {without remembering any dreams or anything} feels like being teleported .

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I created an exact copy of you including memories and everything, would it be you Nikitin? What if I created a copy of you and then killed you? Would you become the copy? Because that's teleportation.

[Nikitn]

I'm of the opinion that the copy will be me. What would it matter what the original me thought about dying? It's gone, afterall.

Let's define conciousness as a continuous stream of coherent thoughts and self awareness. This is a decent definition, isn't it? If the definition is acceptable, then it makes no difference if that stream is broken by instant disassembly of the atoms making up the brain, or by suddenly passing out. If it's broken, then it's broken and you aren't concious. Likewise, it makes no difference beyond cosmetic ones (the difference is that the brain changes a little bit in the process of sleep) if a new stream of thoughts are spawned by waking up or by the brain being reassembled as a perfect copy. The logical conclusion from this is that being teleported from A to B isn't much different from suddenly falling asleep at A before suddenly waking up at B, provided the teleportation process takes as much time as the sleeping one.

So while it sounds instinctively weird to me too, Imo the most rational side of this debate is that you don't actually die when being teleported.

Anyway I'm pretty tired atm, so good night.

[the_mango55]

I'm of the opinion that the copy will be me. What would it matter what the original me thought about dying? It's gone, afterall. .

The problem is that the one who's making the decision on whether to teleport or not is the one who's going to be dying.

Thus there is no incentive to teleport because the person wanted to make the trip will never actually get there, he just dies. The person who arrives on the other side is someone who didn't exist a moment before, but believes he wanted to make the trip.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

The problem is that the one who's making the decision on whether to teleport or not is the one who's going to be dying.

Thus there is no incentive to teleport because the person wanted to make the trip will never actually get there, he just dies. The person who arrives on the other side is someone who didn't exist a moment before, but believes he wanted to make the trip.

many people currently believe and that was my initial guess. Although we must admit we really don't know and that may not be the case at all.

[Elfdude]

What you're talking about then isn't teleportation but rather duplication + incineration. True teleportation would involve somehow shifting matter into the quantum universe which intersects all points and then stepping out in another time and or location. This has two possibilities, somehow converting a person into quantum information and sending it to be reassembled at a specified assembly point, or the wormhole variety in which the objects bring a part of our universe with them through a wormhole through the quantum soup. The second kind has the benefit of creating doctor who. The first kind has no duplication copy problem.

If on the other hand the duplication copy method were employed the experience wouldn't be an experience because there's no way to quantify the changes that you would experience were you conscious into a stream of information. You may have some sensation being disassembled but we would assume your information was transferred before this process occured. If it was integrate with the process then we would hope they work from the top down though it's possible the process could still be rather painful if the person wasn't sedated through the process. If that's the case no doubt the sleep analogy would hold true.

On the other hand the question is whether the copy is a copy or a true. The answer is that it's both a copy and a true version. We call it copy merely to denote it different from ourselves. Whether it would agree with being a copy or defy that idea would depend on your personality and your awareness of what happened in both forms. However upon being duplicated both parties will increasingly experience different courses of events merely by virtue of being in a different physical location and thus become inherently their own people despite having the same starting point upon duplication. Whether the copy would kill and assume your identity or etc would also depend on the nature of society as well as your own personality. Certainly circumstance could drive most of us to kill ourselves whether we were copies or not and whether or not we knew as such. Thus all you can really say is it's a possibility.

I digress. What were we talking about again?

[Nikitn]

What you're talking about then isn't teleportation but rather duplication + incineration. True teleportation would involve somehow shifting matter into the quantum universe which intersects all points and then stepping out in another time and or location. This has two possibilities, somehow converting a person into quantum information and sending it to be reassembled at a specified assembly point, or the wormhole variety in which the objects bring a part of our universe with them through a wormhole through the quantum soup. The second kind has the benefit of creating doctor who. The first kind has no duplication copy problem.

If on the other hand the duplication copy method were employed the experience wouldn't be an experience because there's no way to quantify the changes that you would experience were you conscious into a stream of information. You may have some sensation being disassembled but we would assume your information was transferred before this process occured. If it was integrate with the process then we would hope they work from the top down though it's possible the process could still be rather painful if the person wasn't sedated through the process. If that's the case no doubt the sleep analogy would hold true.

On the other hand the question is whether the copy is a copy or a true. The answer is that it's both a copy and a true version. We call it copy merely to denote it different from ourselves. Whether it would agree with being a copy or defy that idea would depend on your personality and your awareness of what happened in both forms. However upon being duplicated both parties will increasingly experience different courses of events merely by virtue of being in a different physical location and thus become inherently their own people despite having the same starting point upon duplication. Whether the copy would kill and assume your identity or etc would also depend on the nature of society as well as your own personality. Certainly circumstance could drive most of us to kill ourselves whether we were copies or not and whether or not we knew as such. Thus all you can really say is it's a possibility.

I digress. What were we talking about again?

How does the 1st one and 2nd one have any different end result, though? So because in the 1st one you are reassembled with "your" "original" atoms, you didn't really die? While in the 2nd one you are reassembled with "foreign" atoms?

Well that doesn't make any sense. There is no difference between the atoms at all, despite what our instincts tell us (emotional attachment to the original).

Teleporting like that wouldn't be any different from taking apart a computer on a molecular level then building it back up again. It will be the same. The question I assume is will your consciousness and "soul" follow through the operation? Well yes of course it would, you would come right back and start acting, talking, behaving just like you are expected to. The answer is that we don't actually have a "soul". You see, in my opinion we aren't much more than biological/chemical computers, and consciousness is just our brain activity. If you took us apart and put us back again exactly the same our brains would start functioning in that other location and our consciousness would resume.

How would it feel like to be teleported? Well, the answer is, the same way it felt like before you were alive. The same way as after death. Nothing. That is because if you would teleport someone like that they would die for a short amount of time, then be revived again somewhere else.

It's actually true that our conciousness, personality is nothing more than a few chemical reactions and electrical pulses in our brain. But damn is it a cold way to think it... I guess according to religion (where every1 have souls) teleportation would be murder, and the copy would be a soulless husk?

[Elfdude]

How does the 1st one and 2nd one have any different end result, though? So because in the 1st one you are reassembled with "your" "original" atoms, you didn't really die? While in the 2nd one you are reassembled with "foreign" atoms?

No. There's actually 3 things we're talking about here and I'll clarify for you so you can understand.

X = Duplication + Incernation

This involves creating a completely separate version of you elsewhere and destroying the original. If one were to clone themselves and somehow implant their memories into it and activate it a 1000 years from now you would not call that teleportation. While practically you're accomplishing the same thing from a technical standpoint it's different and thus has different ethical concerns. I don't know of any sci fi systems off the top of my head that employ this. It's likely to be quite dystopic if they do.

This is quite simple and theoretically (assuming chemicals are all we are and discounting undiscovered quantum effects) and we might be able to provide the scan at the resolution we need now or within the next few years to properly scan where every atom is. From there rebuilding it just requires the accuracy of being able to replace the atoms bit by bit. If who you are is simply a property of the pattern of your brain then you would be effectively teleported to the place of reassembly. I would find it likely that this would work assuming the reassembly capabilities however the original must be destroyed.

Y = Conversion + Transmission

This is done by converting your atoms into a form of energy which can in turn pass through the quantum universe and arrive at their destination providing both the resources and energy needed (assuming perfect efficiency) for reassembly. It's more like the concept of beaming you to someone. Think star trek.

This would be extraordinarily difficult to do without loss and depends on rather perfect transfer of the energies involved. If you were to lose the energy you'd quite literally be losing a part of yourself and considering it'll likely affect the data at random there's no telling how significant that would be. I think this would be best partnered with X as a failsafe able to restore the user.

Z = Altering the fabric of space of time

This is done by sinking a person/object/what have you into a sort of gravity well which has the power to punch through. Upon punching through, the universe would temporarily split into two, with part of it around the ship/actor and the other part existing where we normally conceive of it. From this point since the quantum universe intersects all points in space and time simultaneously an entire object or ship or etc could go just about anywhere within space and time.

This seems perhaps the truest form of teleportation because it involves moving entire objects instantaneously (from a practical perspective) from point A to point B anywhere in space/time. It would require us to inject a quantum scale wormhole that exists all around us at all times with negative energy forcing it open (doctor who style). Theoretically you could accomplish the same by literally boiling space/time with a focused laser array harnessing an insane amount of power and then injecting it with negative energy (stargate style). How to target it is another story but odds are if you figured out how to harness negative energy like that navigation would be rather trivial.

I'm going to ignore the rest of what you said since it seems you had difficulty understanding what I meant.