Province culture and better soldiers

[ray243]

The Romans have often have a tendency to recruit troops from province that are less "civilised" and more rurals. Towards the end of the 2nd century, the Romans already start making less use of Italians inside their armies, and started to recruit troops from regions like Illyria and Gaul.

We have quite a few sources that actually praise people from those regions, saying they make much better soldiers than any other provinces. Furthermore, because certain province have become more urbanised and have less combat fit people, having a large population does not mean those regions are good recruitment areas. If anything, their unit recruitment pool might even be smaller than a smaller province that is known to have more 'warlike' people.

So will CA reflect this in R2TW? Should they make certain provinces more valuable in terms of their recruitment pool and troops quality? Perhaps it is faster for us to train troops in certain regions?

I don't want all the different province to be more or less the same everywhere. The thing about ancient empires is that while they might have a homogenous culture, there are still numerous sub-cultures that exist in their lands.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

The Romans have often have a tendency to recruit troops from province that are less "civilised" and more rurals. Towards the end of the 2nd century, the Romans already start making less use of Italians inside their armies, and started to recruit troops from regions like Illyria and Gaul.

We have quite a few sources that actually praise people from those regions, saying they make much better soldiers than any other provinces. Furthermore, because certain province have become more urbanised and have less combat fit people, having a large population does not mean those regions are good recruitment areas. If anything, their unit recruitment pool might even be smaller than a smaller province that is known to have more 'warlike' people.

So will CA reflect this in R2TW? Should they make certain provinces more valuable in terms of their recruitment pool and troops quality? Perhaps it is faster for us to train troops in certain regions?

I don't want all the different province to be more or less the same everywhere. The thing about ancient empires is that while they might have a homogenous culture, there are still numerous sub-cultures that exist in their lands.

Indeed but also because The conquered countries after a while become romanized , celts , germans , illyrians , greeks , berbers , anyone could aspire eventually to become a Roman Citizen , and the army was a good way to speed up the process.

It is also tough one of the main reason of the degradation of the Roman army by the end of it's golden age , with the increasing number of mostly germanic soldiers into the army , the discipline started to severely lack , and also those mass levied soldeirs usually sised faster to replace other units or face other german tribes or other nations pressing over the border as for the migrations happening in central asian steppes , lead to fast recruiting , and brought their own military accustomed gear , so the same standardization uniform of roman army started to fade toward a more medieval looking style of units per type and not by type .

[The True Roman]

I dout They'll reflect such things in the recruitment pool but I'm sure they'll have region specific units.

[zg0301zg]

I dout They'll reflect such things in the recruitment pool but I'm sure they'll have region specific units.

I know, but whats the point of having unique units / specific to region, if you cant retrain except in that region

[ray243]

It is also tough one of the main reason of the degradation of the Roman army by the end of it's golden age , with the increasing number of mostly germanic soldiers into the army , the discipline started to severely lack , and also those mass levied soldeirs usually sised faster to replace other units or face other german tribes or other nations pressing over the border as for the migrations happening in central asian steppes , lead to fast recruiting , and brought their own military accustomed gear , so the same standardization uniform of roman army started to fade toward a more medieval looking style of units per type and not by type .

I would dispute that. The whole issue of late Roman army having non-standardised armour and weapons is not really true. If anything, the late Roman army is much more uniformed because they started to standardise their armour and weapons. On the discipline part, there isn't any real indication that the Germans recruited into Roman ranks are any less disciplined at the Roman army in the earlier period.

Be careful when it comes down to discussion the issue of barbarianization in the Roman army. There is quite a difference between federate troops ( that are essentially nothing more than mercenaries) and "barbarians" that are part of the professional Roman army. Federates troops are often described as unreliable, while regular units that contains barbarians can be described as a part of professional and elite army.

Even the Roman army during its very peak is full of barbarians and various non-latin ethnic groups. Most of the elite units during the height of the Roman Empire are actually barbarians! Recall Augustus's elite German cavalry?

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I would dispute that. The whole issue of late Roman army having non-standardised armour and weapons is not really true. If anything, the late Roman army is much more uniformed because they started to standardise their armour and weapons. On the discipline part, there isn't any real indication that the Germans recruited into Roman ranks are any less disciplined at the Roman army in the earlier period.

Be careful when it comes down to discussion the issue of barbarianization in the Roman army. There is quite a difference between federate troops ( that are essentially nothing more than mercenaries) and "barbarians" that are part of the professional Roman army. Federates troops are often described as unreliable, while regular units that contains barbarians can be described as a part of professional and elite army.

Even the Roman army during its very peak is full of barbarians and various non-latin ethnic groups. Most of the elite units during the height of the Roman Empire are actually barbarians! Recall Augustus's elite German cavalry?

On countrary , have you ever read Vegetius ?

[ray243]

On countrary , have you ever read Vegetius ?

Yes, as well as a fair number of research works on the late Roman army. There are other source that paints a different picture of the late Roman army. Take for example, the depiction of the late Roman army by Ammianus Marcellinus.

[Jester]

Is this a joke? better soldiers because someone was born in a certain province?

btw: americans for example have the worst obesity problem, on the other hand they re a military superpower

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I would dispute that. The whole issue of late Roman army having non-standardised armour and weapons is not really true. If anything, the late Roman army is much more uniformed because they started to standardise their armour and weapons. On the discipline part, there isn't any real indication that the Germans recruited into Roman ranks are any less disciplined at the Roman army in the earlier period.

Be careful when it comes down to discussion the issue of barbarianization in the Roman army. There is quite a difference between federate troops ( that are essentially nothing more than mercenaries) and "barbarians" that are part of the professional Roman army. Federates troops are often described as unreliable, while regular units that contains barbarians can be described as a part of professional and elite army.

Even the Roman army during its very peak is full of barbarians and various non-latin ethnic groups. Most of the elite units during the height of the Roman Empire are actually barbarians! Recall Augustus's elite German cavalry?

Apart most of ancient writers and if you consider them not valid sources , then no ofc , because no one living at the tme still lives to day to tell us .
And anyway that discussion is eventually more suited for A BI expansion not the game timeset .

[Lord Baal]

By the end of the Roman era the equipment had changed a lot, they got back to the mail, they primary weapon was a spear and the shield was significantly smaller. They had lost the impulse for conquest. CONQUEST! That was the name of the program with the bald dude I say on the other thread! Look it up on youtube!

[Wodeson]

I'll be disappointed if I can't recruit some Gallic and German Cavalry, or Numidian Light Horse and Javelinmen, or any of the other auxillaries that give a Late Republican army it's variety.

[Ichon]

AOR should make a comeback I think but perhaps with addition of requiring the region producing Numidian or Germanic cavalry to retain some independence for example- so if you conquer a region completely you get a very limited amount of native troops from there but can eventually recruit your factional troops- if you make a region a protectorate you get very little factional troops but have option in all neighboring regions or even far away capitol to recruit high numbers of such troops. If allied to a certain faction it would be nice to be able to recruit a limited number of their troops in your capitol if the alliance lasts at least 10 turns or something.

[Ichon]

Lots of generals through history have commented that some people are more rugged and suited to warfare. I agree that seems somewhat true but its also very hard to depict. It is not so simple as rural vs urban. It is also about the culture and how it glorifies war or not. Look at Spartans vs other Greeks or Romans themselves vs other Italians. It also depends on the economy- relatively rich but small region tend to produce alot of soldiers especially if only older male inherits as that tended to push Norman expansion. On the other hand a very thinly populated region with mostly herding tends to produce excellent soldiers because they grew up raiding and traveling long distances on little food and being always prepared to fight. Vikings might be another example where the cooling of the climate pushed them to migrate while they also possessed superior sailing and metal working skills to many regions they migrated into. Even the early Gauls who conquered quite large areas of Europe before they were in turn conquered by Romans which shows sometimes it is not just the individuals but the combination of technology, culture, military genius, or most often a combination of those factors in a complex system.

[AgentGB]

Well i know the romans liked to adopt an admirable foe into there ranks, has they did with the sarmatians, thracians, spanish, gauls, and such and would usually make up an auxllia. But quite often, legions situated on frontier borders like Thrace or Germania, would eventually change culture wise, with legions marrying the locals, and there offspring claiming some roman heritage would be accepted into the legions. Locals would support the legions in most cases, since they provided security, trade, and development, and locals would join/support the legion. So its quite plausible that any region that a legion spent long durations in, would see fresh recruits obtained this way, im guessing if you had some form of claim to being Roman, you could join the legions, if not, it was the auxiliary.

So having special regions that should give recruitment bonuses or better troop quality im not to sure about for this? Since any captured region, province in time, would be rewarded to veterans to settle there, producing romo – thracians recuits, or romo Spaniards offspring which would still count as romans, Maybe special units, such has Cretan Archers, Thracian archers/warriors, or sarmatian heavy cav. Which if a client state, could be a auxllia troops, for the most part on what date im guessing Rome 2 will cover, Legions will still be thought off to be native, and to join them, you would need to have some claim to be Roman or such? You only really started to see full on cultural change in the make up off the army late in the Roman period i thought?


Here a really useful site, that try to cover the history of each legion, and give a background on how they came to be, were they were raised, situated and replenished.


http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions-geo.html

[AgentGB]

Here an example of a all Gaul legion levied in desperate times made up of non - roman citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_V_Alaudae

But most oftenly, in order to serve, in the legions, you would have had to fought in the auxiliary has the first stepping stone, although citizenship could be gained after completing the 25 year service if recruited/drafted into the legions.

So hopefully units will have AOR, and if Rome 2 is anything like RomaSurrectum, in a historical respect, certain regions may naturally only be the place to raise certain legions, or auxilliary cav.

[krisslanza]

A single show doesn't discredit an entire channel.

That single show is, of course, not worthy of being quoted as proof of anything. Except that people have crazy hair, even outside of video games and anime.

[ray243]

A single show doesn't discredit an entire channel.

That single show is, of course, not worthy of being quoted as proof of anything. Except that people have crazy hair, even outside of video games and anime.

Yes, but I have seen the documentary recommended by Sir. Cunningham. All I get is assertions of outdated views without any sort of justification. Together with the poor reputation History channel, I do not find his case as a strong one.

The show simply assumed certain views as true without making any arguments as to why is this the case. Which is why showing me a documentary is useless if you want to make a counter-argument.

The documentary did not show me just how many historians dispute Elton's works on the late Roman army, nor does it gave any reason to dispute his works. I am afraid that Sir. Cunningham need to find a more academic source if he wants me to believe what Elton argued isn't a valid point of view/argument.

[Lord Baal]

Conquest was a pretty good show. But it was centered more over the weapons and how where used than in the people it self. But even when yes, different people from different regions where different, there's no a single über race that would deserve a bonus point in strength or speed or whatever in the game. As for that the units already have different stats, and when you recruit somebody into your army you make them adapt to your tactics, not the other way around unless you are learning from them in which case is not so much a recruitment into your army as a reform of said army.

That's not even counting that everywhere, you can have large, fat, small, thin or whatever people. But in a effective army, that march all day and fights regularly you are bound to find only thought people, and don't believe that for some people being taller they have an innate advantage over the smaller ones.

In the end we will end up with some horrible resource system the would resemble the ones in shogun, where people trained here gets an armor bonus while people there get a weapon bonuses and you can't even retrain them, making you wonder how much brain would it takes to simply export the armor and weapons from those provinces to the rest of you empire, clan, kingdom, whatever. A don't play the "balance" or the people will make uber units card on me, that's just rubbish. People want to be able to retrain your troops if there's the chance and money, which most of the time will not always be the case.

[ray243]

Conquest was a pretty good show. But it was centered more over the weapons and how where used than in the people it self. But even when yes, different people from different regions where different, there's no a single über race that would deserve a bonus point in strength or speed or whatever in the game. As for that the units already have different stats, and when you recruit somebody into your army you make them adapt to your tactics, not the other way around unless you are learning from them in which case is not so much a recruitment into your army as a reform of said army.

That's not even counting that everywhere, you can have large, fat, small, thin or whatever people. But in a effective army, that march all day and fights regularly you are bound to find only thought people, and don't believe that for some people being taller they have an innate advantage over the smaller ones.

In the end we will end up with some horrible resource system the would resemble the ones in shogun, where people trained here gets an armor bonus while people there get a weapon bonuses and you can't even retrain them, making you wonder how much brain would it takes to simply export the armor and weapons from those provinces to the rest of you empire, clan, kingdom, whatever. A don't play the "balance" or the people will make uber units card on me, that's just rubbish. People want to be able to retrain your troops if there's the chance and money, which most of the time will not always be the case.

Why should giving bonus to troops/units from certain regions a problem? This is already happening in all Total war games, where certain factions have certain regional unit bonus. If you take over certain region, you should be able to gain some of those units with special attributes.

[Ichon]

Why should giving bonus to troops/units from certain regions a problem? This is already happening in all Total war games, where certain factions have certain regional unit bonus. If you take over certain region, you should be able to gain some of those units with special attributes.

There is a difference between gaining a new unit and having units that can be recruited anywhere but in a single province get a permanent stat bonus. I much prefer higher XP from training or experience to differentiate similar units while special AOR units available in lower numbers can only be recruited in the province of origin or perhaps as mercenaries or in capitol if faction which controls such a region is an ally.

I really disliked Shogun 2's permanent bonus based on region of recruitment though it might barely make sense for such a small scale as perhaps some specialties could be so particular but on the scale that RTW2 will be covering such a large area it does not make sense and would be highly annoying for gameplay.