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  1. #1
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    Default Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Just a warning. It's 10,000+ Words.

    I found it on the Startrek.com Message Boards. Please don't complain about the fomatting. That's the way it was posted.


    ... from a member of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (aka informally as "atheists in foxholes") ...

    There is a group of people in the United States that
    is so distrusted by the general public that by law in
    five states they cannot hold public office, so
    dispised that popular songs are made of their horrific
    abuses and immorality, and they are the only ones who
    protest. A sitting American president has publicly
    stated that they aren't even worthy of American
    citizenship. When they speak up for their rights, they
    are told to shut up and sit down because they brought
    it on themselves by making a terrible choice, and
    worse, encouraging their children to follow in their
    footsteps.

    Meanwhile, this group has watched as every other
    group once in their position has stepped into
    mainstream society, even helped them on their way.
    First women, then blacks, now gays and even illegal
    immigrants have stepped into the spotlight to demand
    the right to be treated just like everyone else. Yet,
    the American atheist continues to be discriminated
    against and when the atheist complains about abuse or
    the loss of civil liberties he or she is told to sit
    down and shut up, and the most vocal respondents cheer
    for the abusers. Discrimination against atheists is
    widespread and pervasive in the American culture and
    is rarely even recognized by theists as even being
    discrimination.

    Unlike many groups where the abusers are easily
    identifiable, the heart of discrimination is not
    within a group of people who can be singled out. Bias
    against atheists is so deep within the very culture
    and subconscious of Americans that most don't even
    realize what they are doing. Most atheists have many
    stories about people, some who are new aquaintences,
    others are people whom they have known for some time,
    who, apon learning of the person's atheism, exclaim,
    ?I've never met an atheist before? or ?But you're too
    nice to be an atheist? without ever realizing how
    hurtful those words are.

    The discrimination begins with the very definition of
    the word ?atheist.? According to Webster's Dictionary
    (1989) an atheist is ?one who denies or disbelieves in
    the existence of God...? (p. 93). The definition
    begins with the assumption of the existence of a deity
    rather than taking a neutral stance. So, what is an
    atheist? Ask an atheist and he or she will tell you
    that an atheist is a person who lacks a belief in a
    higher power. The word ?atheist? itself was coined by
    the Greeks, meaning literally ?not a god believer.?
    There is not just one kind of atheist, as with any
    group atheists have diverse views. Many atheists are
    skeptics, people who do not believe in anything that
    has even the slightest hint of ?supernatural? about
    it, while others have particular bents to their
    disbelief, such as Secular Humanists, Objectivists and
    Materialists. Some are even members of philosophies
    that are grouped as ?religions? such as traditional
    Buddhism, a ?religion? that has no godhead, only a
    philosophy.

    The history of abuse and discrimination against
    atheists goes back thousands of years. According to
    the Bible ?the fool hath said in his heart, There is
    no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable
    works, there is none that doeth good.? (Psalm 14:1,
    King James Bible) and ?they are all gone aside, they
    are all together become filthy: there is none that
    doeth good, no, not one? (Psalm 14:3). In ancient
    Greek and Roman times admitted atheism was a death
    sentence. In more recent times atheists were among
    those that were killed in the Nazi death camps before
    and during World War II along with Jews, gypsies,
    homosexuals, the physically disabled and ?mental
    defectives.?

    It has been made clear that atheists are not welcome
    even in this modern world. During an interview with
    President George HW Bush in Chicago, journalist Robert
    Sherman asked the president, "Surely you recognize the
    equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are
    atheists?" to which then President Bush replied, "No,
    I don't know that atheists should be considered as
    citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This
    is one nation under God? (Sherman 1989). In 1995
    Madalyn Murray O'Hair, founder of American Atheists,
    her son and granddaughter were brutally murdered and
    buried in barrels under a Texas ranch.

    In John Michael Montgomery's 2000 hit country song
    ?The Little Girl? was based on a popular internet
    urban myth. ?The Little Girl? tells the story of a
    little girl neglected by her drug-addicted, atheistic
    parents who die in a night of domestic violence as the
    child hides behind the couch. This song illustrates
    and reinforces the image that most Americans have of
    the average atheist as an out of control, immoral
    person who holds no value for human life. Had this
    song instead singled out the parents as being black,
    Jewish, gay or lesbian the song would have produced
    outraged protests. Instead, the song was adopted into
    the political campaigns of both Republican candidate
    George W Bush and Democratic candidate Joe Lieberman.
    Music isn't the only media that casts atheists as
    immoral monsters. How many times on ?Touched By An
    Angel? (1994) did the angel Monica take a ?lost
    atheist soul? with serious moral failings and ?cure?
    the person through conversion?

    Three celebrities who have been held up to the
    American public as heroes, Lance Armstrong, Pat
    Tillman and Christopher Reeve are/were publicly
    atheistic (Celebrity Atheist List 2006). When a
    public hero has strong religious convictions, the
    media often focuses on the faith of the hero.
    Conveniently, the atheism of these individuals is
    ignored. The adage ?there are no atheists in
    foxholes? is often repeated by the media when disaster
    strikes. After 9/11 the media said, ?there are no
    atheists in fire trucks? and after Hurricane Katrina
    ?there are no atheists in hurricanes.? Were there
    really no atheists among the firefighters who
    responded to the World Trade Center? No atheists
    walking out of New Orleans? Did they all really
    convert when faced with possible death? What if I said
    that ?there were no Christians in the Twin Towers,?
    intimating that they all lost their faith in their
    chosen deity when they weren't miraculously delivered
    from harm?

    One of the biggest hurdles in equality that atheists
    experience is the status of atheism. Is atheism
    itself a religion? Many religious groups claim that
    atheism is a religion, dependent on the belief that
    there is no god. Most atheists reject the inclusion of
    atheism within the definition of ?religion? stating
    that atheism is the absence of belief. A favorite
    saying for atheists is ?if atheism is a religion, then
    baldness is a hairstyle.? However, without claiming
    status as a religion, atheists risk losing the
    ?freedom of religion? guaranteed in the First
    Amendment. Groups such as the Freedom From Religion
    Foundation argue in the courts and in the media that
    the freedom of religion also includes the freedom from
    religion.

    Repeatedly, the courts have ruled that any prayer
    offered in a publicly funded setting must be
    non-sectarian; that is, it cannot be specifically
    identifiable as belonging to one specific religion in
    order to protect such religious minorities as Jews,
    Muslims, Hindus and others. However such rulings leave
    out the fact that there are far more atheists in the
    U.S. than all of these religious minorities combined,
    and imply that the feelings of these atheists are
    worth less than the feelings of those religious
    minorities. In the U.S., laws and policies exist that
    specifically exclude atheists. In North Carolina,
    Tennessee, Mississippi, Texas and Arkansas there are
    provisions in the state constitutions specifically
    requiring a belief in a higher power to hold office.
    While these are clearly unconstitutional in nature,
    they are as yet not overturned by the courts or
    amended by the state legislatures.

    In order to provide support for very small minority
    religions such as Wicca, the U.S. military runs a
    program to recognize lay ministers, members of
    minority religions certified by their belief groups to
    lead other members in activities based around their
    beliefs. The only official requirement for lay
    ministry is recognition of the group they are to
    represent. In 2001, members of the Humanist Church of
    America and the Church of Freethought, atheist groups
    modeled on traditional church structure to provide
    social support to other atheists, were denied lay
    ministries based on their atheism. In 1999 in Texas
    the North Texas Church of Freethought, the
    Universalist Church and Buddhist temple were denied
    tax exempt status because the Texas state law
    requiring acknowledgment of a godhead in order to be
    recognized by the state, despite existing federal
    recognition of both groups. (Barbee, 2004).

    One of the greatest misconceptions that the general
    public holds about atheists is the ?atheist agenda?
    which supposedly demands the destruction of religion.
    While many (but far from all) atheists would love to
    see religion disappear, atheists generally hold a
    realistic view that religion isn't going to disappear
    anytime soon and that religionists have the right to
    their religion. However, atheists and the
    organizations through which atheists work do have a
    far less extreme goal: To end practices by government
    and American culture that force atheists to make a
    choice between entirely withdrawing from the world and
    being subjected to religious practices in public
    forums, such as prayers at city councils and school
    pledges to a deity that they do not believe in.
    Atheists are the first to defend the rights of
    theists, as long as those rights do not interfere with
    the rights of others.

    It is rather telling that atheists use the same term
    as gays in regard to their public status. Atheists are
    either in the closet or out. Many are unable to tell
    their families of their non-belief for fear of
    alienation or worse, condesension. To this day, more
    than 20 years after I told my grandmother that I am an
    atheist, my grandmother is still certain that my
    atheism is a ?youthful stage? which I will grow out
    of. The social ramifications of leaving the church in
    a small town or close-knit neighborhood are so extreme
    that many atheists, especially female atheists, often
    continue attending church for years after turning to
    atheism, for fear of complete social rejection.

    The unconscious contempt with which so many Americans
    regard atheists goes so deep and is so accepted that
    some theists choose to ignore laws that support the
    rights of the atheists. Instead of being condemned for
    breaking the law they are cheered on by other
    theists. Most of those reasonable Americans who do see
    such treatment of atheists as wrong tend to fail to
    speak up and until they do atheists will still be a
    legitimate target.

    An American Atheist
    Member of S.I.N.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Are Atheists really discriminated against? Maybe I'm unaware because I'm a crazy pinko left coast lib, but I never thought anyone did that.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    As long as atheist (as Ive stated before I am a 'former' atheist, more agnostic now a days) allow themselves to be defined by loud mouth, anti religious atheist they are going to be viewed negatively. Too many of the most vocal atheist are the types who wield their 'non belief' in a manner much like people like Pat Robertson wields hisbelief. Guys like Robertson wield religion as them vs us and so do ironically alot of atheist. Its possible to be a christian and not shove ones religion down others throats and its possible to be an atheist and not try and convince people they are 'stupid' for believing...the problem is there is a lack of those atheist. Too many atheist believe its their 'duty' to help remove religion from every day life...sounds familiar eh to religious right who want religion included in pretty much every aspect of life. Any 'cry' of discrimination by atheist is pure nonsense imo.

    Want to change the imagine of atheist? Then work towards productive means so that anytime the word atheist is in the news it isnt associated with a lawsuit against the pledge, christmas, easter or other nonsense.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    AToo many atheist believe its their 'duty' to help remove religion from every day life...sounds familiar eh to religious right who want religion included in pretty much every aspect of life. Any 'cry' of discrimination by atheist is pure nonsense imo.
    Got any evidence for that assertion?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    Want to change the imagine of atheist? Then work towards productive means so that anytime the word atheist is in the news it isnt associated with a lawsuit against the pledge, christmas, easter or other nonsense.
    The media decides what gets shown and what doesn't, and the 'evil atheists vs. America' tagline sells.

    The 'Pledge of Allegiance' was changed in the fifties to include the reference to god. What is unreasonable about wanting it changed back to it's former, neutral state? Most religious people believe it actually is neutral as the 'god' referenced to can be taken as the god of numerous different religions, a perfect example of the unwitting discrimination against those who are not monotheistic.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Maybe rather than presenting a new image, people could just learn not to generalise even if it is oh so convenient. Fanatics and eccentrics will always get more publicity than moderates, if the audience decide to make sweeping assumptions based on the rampant oratory of a few extremists, then it is they who are out of touch with reality.
    In a perfect world sure and when you find that perfect world make sure you let the rest of us know so we can join you. Simply saying people who hold those views are ones out of touch with reality doesnt exactly solve the problem does it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    Got any evidence for that assertion?
    An assertation based on personal experience and observation. As my post is MY opinion/view on things obviously others might see thing differently.

    The media decides what gets shown and what doesn't, and the 'evil atheists vs. America' tagline sells.

    The 'Pledge of Allegiance' was changed in the fifties to include the reference to god. What is unreasonable about wanting it changed back to it's former, neutral state? Most religious people believe it actually is neutral as the 'god' referenced to can be taken as the god of numerous different religions, a perfect example of the unwitting discrimination against those who are not monotheistic.
    As one isnt required to recite the pledge there is nothing in it that discriminates. And yes of course media eats it up but as I said its the only voice out there. Just like anytime Pat Robertson opens his mouth big enough to fit his foot in the media coverages it but as I said if its the only voice out there its going to be what defines the group regardless of whether that is fair or not it happens and things like the pledge are nonsense issues.

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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    An assertation based on personal experience and observation. As my post is MY opinion/view on things obviously others might see thing differently.
    You said 'too many atheists believe...', which led me to believe you were just extrapolating from anecdotal evidence, which is why I asked about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    As one isnt required to recite the pledge there is nothing in it that discriminates.
    Non sequitur.

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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    Got any evidence for that assertion?


    The media decides what gets shown and what doesn't, and the 'evil atheists vs. America' tagline sells.

    The 'Pledge of Allegiance' was changed in the fifties to include the reference to god. What is unreasonable about wanting it changed back to it's former, neutral state? Most religious people believe it actually is neutral as the 'god' referenced to can be taken as the god of numerous different religions, a perfect example of the unwitting discrimination against those who are not monotheistic.
    Yeah, swearing on a bible in court is especially retarded because (1.) religious influence has NO place in our legal system let alone government, and (2.) what about all the non-christian people? Do they have jewish, islamic, bhuddist and other "holy" books for people to swear on? For me they might as well just use an encyclopedia or something.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by D3c1m80r
    Yeah, swearing on a bible in court is especially retarded because (1.) religious influence has NO place in our legal system let alone government, and (2.) what about all the non-christian people? Do they have jewish, islamic, bhuddist and other "holy" books for people to swear on? For me they might as well just use an encyclopedia or something.
    Been in a court room lately? No one swears on a bible anymore, generally its simply raising ones hand and swearing to tell the truth. Maybe in the bible belt states it is used but even then you are not required to swear on a bible, you can simply affirm/swear to tell the truth.

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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    As long as atheist (as Ive stated before I am a 'former' atheist, more agnostic now a days) allow themselves to be defined by loud mouth, anti religious atheist they are going to be viewed negatively. Too many of the most vocal atheist are the types who wield their 'non belief' in a manner much like people like Pat Robertson wields hisbelief.
    Could you please provide us with examples of atheists who try to force other individuals to drop their religion, as opposed to making the government drop religion? Because that's what the Pat Robertson-style theocrat does: he tries to make other individuals obey the beliefs of his religion: beliefs such as their distaste for pornography, their reverence for the Sabbath Day, their conviction that human rights begin at the instant of conception, and their anti-gay discrimination: none of which carry a scientific basis.

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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    In my opinion, people should not be treated unfairly or unjustly simply because of their religious convictions, and that includes atheists. Understand that it's unlikely that you will find someone more conservative, politically and religiously, than I am.

    The rights afforded all Americans by the Constitution should be extended to atheists. This is the conservative position in America.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quite annoying to hear Christians say how hard it is for a Christian to 'survive' in the modern world with all the evil people opposing Christ.
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    Quite annoying to hear Christians say how hard it is for a Christian to 'survive' in the modern world with all the evil people opposing Christ.
    It's a matter of region; you shouldn't generalise like that.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentinian
    It's a matter of region; you shouldn't generalise like that.
    True, but I hear Christians around me (that is in Holland) saying that Christians are a minority and they fear prosecutions one day. In Holland, about half of the people are atheist, that's different in America: polls show that only 5-10% of the Americans don't believe in God (remember that many of these 5-10% do believe in a higher being but not in the Christian God). But if 90% of the Americans believe in God, than why is the porn-industry so succesful in America?
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    True, but I hear Christians around me (that is in Holland) saying that Christians are a minority and they fear prosecutions one day. In Holland, about half of the people are atheist, that's different in America: polls show that only 5-10% of the Americans don't believe in God (remember that many of these 5-10% do believe in a higher being but not in the Christian God). But if 90% of the Americans believe in God, than why is the porn-industry so succesful in America?
    Because there's 300 million people in America, and they have the freedom and the money to access it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgamer
    Because there's 300 million people in America, and they have the freedom and the money to access it.
    They government gives them the freedom to watch porn, but God doesn't. I hate that hipocrisy (sp?)!
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    True, but I hear Christians around me (that is in Holland) saying that Christians are a minority and they fear prosecutions one day. In Holland, about half of the people are atheist, that's different in America: polls show that only 5-10% of the Americans don't believe in God (remember that many of these 5-10% do believe in a higher being but not in the Christian God). But if 90% of the Americans believe in God, than why is the porn-industry so succesful in America?
    Because we sin, of course. By this logic, if 90% of people are christians, why is sin so successful in America? Do you assume we're perfect? No, but that's what it's hinting at.

    They government gives them the freedom to watch porn, but God doesn't. I hate that hipocrisy (sp?)!
    Don't see the hipocrisy there.
    Last edited by shenmueguru; July 09, 2006 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Danzig, the problem is it is the more hardline view people, both atheist and religious, are the ones more likely to be heard. I could say similar things about religion and the religious right as you have done about atheists and hardline anti-theists. I love how you generalise "most" of us as being liek that. We aren't. Most of the atheists i know do not try to shove their views down peoples thoats, they repsect peoples views, just like i do. I only know of very few athesits who will go out of their way to shove their views in other peoples faces.

    Brilliant way to generalise us athesits Danzig.
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted
    Danzig, the problem is it is the more hardline view people, both atheist and religious, are the ones more likely to be heard. I could say similar things about religion and the religious right as you have done about atheists and hardline anti-theists. I love how you generalise "most" of us as being liek that. We aren't. Most of the atheists i know do not try to shove their views down peoples thoats, they repsect peoples views, just like i do. I only know of very few athesits who will go out of their way to shove their views in other peoples faces.

    Brilliant way to generalise us athesits Danzig.
    Did you NOT read my post? Did you NOT see the fact I pointed out the most VOCAL of atheist and did not generalize the entire group? I made specific comparisons between some atheist and some religious right in how they are similiar. As I pointed out the problem is anytime there is any vocal atheist out there it is usually one involving a lawsuit of some sort its like viewing the christian world as if the only christians were Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell. The difference is there are many, many moderate christians out there to counter Robertsons of the world and there are very, very few moderate atheist to counter the nutcases. So the atheist 'cause' has been hijacked much like the religious right attempt to hijack religion the problem is there is few vocal, moderate atheist out there putting out there a more accurate picture. Next time read the post.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    Did you NOT read my post? Did you NOT see the fact I pointed out the most VOCAL of atheist and did not generalize the entire group? I made specific comparisons between some atheist and some religious right in how they are similiar. As I pointed out the problem is anytime there is any vocal atheist out there it is usually one involving a lawsuit of some sort its like viewing the christian world as if the only christians were Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell. The difference is there are many, many moderate christians out there to counter Robertsons of the world and there are very, very few moderate atheist to counter the nutcases. So the atheist 'cause' has been hijacked much like the religious right attempt to hijack religion the problem is there is few vocal, moderate atheist out there putting out there a more accurate picture. Next time read the post.

    Why are there very few moderate atheists?

    We aren't beheading people. We aren't blowing ourselves up. We aren't declaring fatwah's on christians who say we aren't citizens or patriots. We aren't instigating laws which execute people if they convert from atheism to another religion.


    There are extremist atheists, surely, but part of the blessing of atheism and agnosticism (Of which I prescribe myself to both, being atheist in the company of the religiously fanatical and agnostic when I am in more comfortable religious surroundings), is that part of the belief can often be simply not caring about other people's faith (Contrary to some mentionings in Islam and Christianity which do make the conversion of unbelievers seem important). People break that rule, but it's far from the majority. Most Atheists are moderates who only become extreme when you harass them with religion.
    Last edited by Ahiga; July 08, 2006 at 08:07 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Article about the treatment of American Atheists

    But there you outline one of the problems of being an atheist, we are only united by the fact we are atheists, not in any other way. Christians are united by their faith, so it is easier for more moderate ones to speak for their religion. Oh, and you did say MOST atheists, which is generalising a whole group. Now being an atheist who is secure in my views, i do not feel the need to speak up about my views, i only do when i feel atheists get labelled badly, or have false allegations made against them. There are many, many moderate atheists, me included. We just tend to keep our views to ourselves and not shout them from the roof tops, like more extreme atheists. There are more oderate voices speaking against extreme atheists, its just that we tend to do it more quietly.
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