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  1. #1
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Agents?

    What is your opinion on agents in R2TW?

    Personally I don't want narrow one skill agents like we have seen recently.

    I think that agents should be more blended with characters.

    There should be two classes so to speak. Patricians (Nobles), and Plebeians (everyone else).

    Patricians come from your family and generals and their jobs should be generals, governor's, diplomats, and bribery.

    Plebs who you recruit from cities, these guys are spies, assassin's, sabotage, and civil unrest.

    I think CA should focus more on multipurpose characters who do more than just commanding armies or killing people. Who knows maybe even women characters could be used as agents for stuff like bribery, assassinations, and perhaps some informal alliances.
    Give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish you feed him for a lifetime.
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  2. #2
    Lord Dakier's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Agents?

    I'd like to see the option of allowing family members to be something other than generals. Give them career paths. As soon as they become of age they get 1 point to spend in the desired career path. Perhaps have it by random chance that they're better at certain careers than others too.
    We Came, We Saw, We Ran Away!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Agents?

    In Rome 1 family members could already be Generals, Governors, or Politicians. I think that's a good system to go back to.

    Other than that the only agent we definitely know of is the temptress from the trailer. Perhaps everyone's favorite roman battlefield ninjas will make a comeback as an agent this time?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evillemon325 View Post
    In Rome 1 family members could already be Generals, Governors, or Politicians. I think that's a good system to go back to.
    No, in Rome the ones with "Influence" just got bonuses once in a while. (Offices)

    There was 0 politicking, and the governing was as advanced as in any other TW game.

  5. #5
    Libertus
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    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Dakier View Post
    I'd like to see the option of allowing family members to be something other than generals. Give them career paths. As soon as they become of age they get 1 point to spend in the desired career path. Perhaps have it by random chance that they're better at certain careers than others too.
    I would like this as well. Perhaps having them gain some of their education traits based off the city they are in. For example cities could have temples that gave different bonuses, and there also be specialized academies to which to send your young Roman.

    As for agents and characters in general they could do a better job mixing the old traits and reputation system (like the dread vs chivalry thing) with the new RPG system. So you could specialize your agent using the RPG system, but still allow him to get a wider variety of good (or bad) traits based off their actions.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Agents?

    In Rome 1 family members could already be Generals, Governors, or Politicians. I think that's a good system to go back to.
    I agree. I would like to see my family member as a spy or something similar.

    Personally I don't want narrow one skill agents like we have seen recently.
    Agreed, spies and assassins in one.

    Merchants

    Priests

    Diplomats aren't really needed.

    That's about it.

    roman battlefield ninjas will make a comeback as an agent this time?
    Yes, the arcani could be the 3D model for Roman assassins and spies(as one).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Agents?

    I'd like to see a similar system as run in Crusader Kings II

  8. #8

    Default Re: Agents?

    There can be new kinds of agents

  9. #9
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor of The Great Unknown View Post
    There should be two classes so to speak. Patricians (Nobles), and Plebeians (everyone else).

    Patricians come from your family and generals and their jobs should be generals, governor's, diplomats, and bribery.

    Plebs who you recruit from cities, these guys are spies, assassin's, sabotage, and civil unrest.

    .
    Arh, not that easy. I believe 30% of the senators were plebs.

    But i agree.

    More different skills for each agent.

    A merchant who is good at dealing leather, doesn't have to be good at dealing salt, or a spy might not be as good at sabotaging, as gathering information.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futski View Post
    Arh, not that easy. I believe 30% of the senators were plebs.
    ....
    .
    Only after 400 years of struggle ...

    Each civilised nation SHOULD be made of haves and have-nots, with a huge gap between these two

    R
    oOo

    Rome 2 refugee ...

    oOo

  11. #11

    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futski View Post
    Arh, not that easy. I believe 30% of the senators were plebs.

    But i agree.

    More different skills for each agent.

    A merchant who is good at dealing leather, doesn't have to be good at dealing salt, or a spy might not be as good at sabotaging, as gathering information.
    I disagree, being a good merchant doesnt mean you have to know anything about it, thats why you have manufacturer, good merchant means he can sell you bad thing or good thing for higher amount of money.. you mixed it a little bit

  12. #12

    Default Re: Agents?

    A merchant who is good at dealing leather, doesn't have to be good at dealing salt, or a spy might not be as good at sabotaging, as gathering information.
    I like that idea. They could get special traits like that :

    " Specialist in gold " - The merchant can earn twice as much from selling gold for every turn.
    " expert spy " - there is a 95 % chance that the agent will gather al information on the city without being seen.

    Or something sorta that.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Agents?

    all retainers should be agents.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Agents?

    If the Ruling family members aren't by default military commanders, they could take up any number of professions, which brings up an interesting scenario where some believe a Merchant is not suited to become head of state, and if he's directly in the line of succession, assassinations attempts on him increase. Army morale level might drop as well.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  15. #15
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Agents?

    NONE. Ok, not so serious. But I think having agents, moving them as check boards as you move armies is annoying and not quite effective. You are bound to forget agents here and there and remembering them only when you read they are dead of old age or by an "accident" or some sorts.

    I'm more in favor of the abstraction of this series of services. Picture, imagine if you will, a screen or frame, with the map of the whole known world at the right, taking most of the screen, it's provinces and who owns what... A mini map for all purposes and intention. Know, contemplate that at the left, for what it's left of this frame, there's a list. This list reflects several things and have sliders, yes, sliders that go from 0 to 100%. This sliders describe things like commercial interest, religion conversion, espionage, sabotage and other non conventional shenanigans, and right below there's the amount of money you spend on them.

    As you click on regions on the mini map, the list changes to reflect how much you care and therefore invest on the underground of each region, and the trick is that for very well, known, or even own provinces establishing a spy network to keep your own forces on check and protect you from outsiders is not that really hard compared for example to do the same in unknown enemy territory. This will reflect on the cost of this networks. Having them for example in Rome it self at 100% would cost you let's say, 50 pieces of gold per turn, while having them at 100% in let's say, Britain will cost you 1000 pieces of gold per turn, at least until the region it's pacified and fully integrated to your empire.

    Know, as you have this sliders up your rats network will start to grow on the region, adding "points", levels or percentage to it, progressively and directly proportional to the amount of interest you put on them versus certain things like the happiness of the region with their current government and certain cultural modifiers. It would be really hard and expensive for Rome to have a spy network in Cartage for example.

    Anyhow, as your networks start to grow, things starts to happen at certain levels, like gaining random information about troop movements and camps, city population and happiness. Those would be passive actions that would happen automatically with minimal chances of getting caught.

    Then there are the active actions, like ordering the untimely dead of a specific political or military figure, the occasional fire of certain buildings and so on. But before you order those things you need to have certain levels of certain networks on those provinces. And each time you oder something the level of that province lowers a little or a lot depending on the importance of your deeds. Burning a farm is not so much notorious as trying to kill the emperor or chieftain don't you think? This, way each time you order something the level of the network drops, combined with a capped max amount of "points" in each region gives a mechanism that refraining you and the AI from simply stocking lots of points and razing all with your spies and assassins for example.

    As logic dictates, failed attempts could randomly drops the network level or "points" far more or even outright destroying the whole network with the risk of exposing you. But even successful attempts are not out of the scope of blowing everything. Why you ask? Imagine the agent gets caught, either after being successfully or not (of course failed attempts are way more prone to get caught) and he don't kill himself as ordered, and starts to sing all about who hired him and so on. This would make this kind of move more risky and exciting, adding a little more randomness and making developing a good network a necessity to get the job done.

    Just my two cents. I hope people don't get mad as this would effectively remove all agents from the game. Or not? Because you could still have a list of agents, and deploy them to the regions you would like to. You just simply would not move them on the board as a piece.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Baal View Post
    NONE. Ok, not so serious. But I think having agents, moving them as check boards as you move armies is annoying and not quite effective. You are bound to forget agents here and there and remembering them only when you read they are dead of old age or by an "accident" or some sorts.

    I'm more in favor of the abstraction of this series of services. Picture, imagine if you will, a screen or frame, with the map of the whole known world at the right, taking most of the screen, it's provinces and who owns what... A mini map for all purposes and intention. Know, contemplate that at the left, for what it's left of this frame, there's a list. This list reflects several things and have sliders, yes, sliders that go from 0 to 100%. This sliders describe things like commercial interest, religion conversion, espionage, sabotage and other non conventional shenanigans, and right below there's the amount of money you spend on them.

    As you click on regions on the mini map, the list changes to reflect how much you care and therefore invest on the underground of each region, and the trick is that for very well, known, or even own provinces establishing a spy network to keep your own forces on check and protect you from outsiders is not that really hard compared for example to do the same in unknown enemy territory. This will reflect on the cost of this networks. Having them for example in Rome it self at 100% would cost you let's say, 50 pieces of gold per turn, while having them at 100% in let's say, Britain will cost you 1000 pieces of gold per turn, at least until the region it's pacified and fully integrated to your empire.

    Know, as you have this sliders up your rats network will start to grow on the region, adding "points", levels or percentage to it, progressively and directly proportional to the amount of interest you put on them versus certain things like the happiness of the region with their current government and certain cultural modifiers. It would be really hard and expensive for Rome to have a spy network in Cartage for example.

    Anyhow, as your networks start to grow, things starts to happen at certain levels, like gaining random information about troop movements and camps, city population and happiness. Those would be passive actions that would happen automatically with minimal chances of getting caught.

    Then there are the active actions, like ordering the untimely dead of a specific political or military figure, the occasional fire of certain buildings and so on. But before you order those things you need to have certain levels of certain networks on those provinces. And each time you oder something the level of that province lowers a little or a lot depending on the importance of your deeds. Burning a farm is not so much notorious as trying to kill the emperor or chieftain don't you think? This, way each time you order something the level of the network drops, combined with a capped max amount of "points" in each region gives a mechanism that refraining you and the AI from simply stocking lots of points and razing all with your spies and assassins for example.

    As logic dictates, failed attempts could randomly drops the network level or "points" far more or even outright destroying the whole network with the risk of exposing you. But even successful attempts are not out of the scope of blowing everything. Why you ask? Imagine the agent gets caught, either after being successfully or not (of course failed attempts are way more prone to get caught) and he don't kill himself as ordered, and starts to sing all about who hired him and so on. This would make this kind of move more risky and exciting, adding a little more randomness and making developing a good network a necessity to get the job done.

    Just my two cents. I hope people don't get mad as this would effectively remove all agents from the game. Or not? Because you could still have a list of agents, and deploy them to the regions you would like to. You just simply would not move them on the board as a piece.


    Brilliant idea, i'm totally against moving diplomats, merchants, spys or assassins or whatever they are called.

    A list with named agents with different stats in diplomacy, spying, etc...

    If i want to kill a faction leader i could pick a "agent" with the best qualities out of my list to do the job.
    If i want to know more about the defensive qualities i pick again a agent out of my list.

    But...
    i think the messages if your agents were succesful should take a few turns.
    Last edited by Ariovist; July 30, 2012 at 09:13 AM.

  17. #17
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovist View Post
    Brilliant idea
    Wow, thanks. I don't know if brilliant, but it could be a more controlled, comfortable way to manage agents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariovist View Post
    i'm totally against moving diplomats, merchants, spys or assassins or whatever they are called.

    A list with named agents with different stats in diplomacy, spying, etc...

    If i want to kill a faction leader i could pick a "agent" with the best qualities out of my list to do the job.
    If i want to know more about the defensive qualities i pick again a agent out of my list.

    But...
    i think the messages if your agents were succesful should take a few turns.
    Exactly, this would even be more simple. From the list you ideally select the more apt agent for the job, you give him a task and then a few turns latter you get back on the results. He can say that either he failed or succeeded. Or you could simply not know about him ever again, noticing he failed and was either bribed, imprisoned or killed. If the agent failed you could consider killing him to make an example to others and such. It would be a really gamey option but it would flesh out the agents a little more.

    The other option would be the idea of my last post paired with the ability to assign specific agents to the regions that would impact, for right or wrong, their respective networks with their skills.
    Last edited by Lord Baal; July 30, 2012 at 09:48 AM.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Agents?

    what i hated the most is moving diplomat toward any faction to talk about ceasfire , marriagese etc, also I was limited per one turn, you couldnt renegotiate which was / is very annoying, instead since you could have sort of embassy and via that arrange and talk to selected factions...same think could be done for commerce...

    having various merchant quarters and outpost by moving sliders, sending expeditions on long voyages etc...like Lord Baal said also spy network instead of wasting time on manual sending agents and later on to forget about them, until you get message he got old and died

  19. #19

    Default Re: Agents?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Baal View Post
    NONE. Ok, not so serious. But I think having agents, moving them as check boards as you move armies is annoying and not quite effective. You are bound to forget agents here and there and remembering them only when you read they are dead of old age or by an "accident" or some sorts.

    I'm more in favor of the abstraction of this series of services. Picture, imagine if you will, a screen or frame, with the map of the whole known world at the right, taking most of the screen, it's provinces and who owns what... A mini map for all purposes and intention. Know, contemplate that at the left, for what it's left of this frame, there's a list. This list reflects several things and have sliders, yes, sliders that go from 0 to 100%. This sliders describe things like commercial interest, religion conversion, espionage, sabotage and other non conventional shenanigans, and right below there's the amount of money you spend on them.

    As you click on regions on the mini map, the list changes to reflect how much you care and therefore invest on the underground of each region, and the trick is that for very well, known, or even own provinces establishing a spy network to keep your own forces on check and protect you from outsiders is not that really hard compared for example to do the same in unknown enemy territory. This will reflect on the cost of this networks. Having them for example in Rome it self at 100% would cost you let's say, 50 pieces of gold per turn, while having them at 100% in let's say, Britain will cost you 1000 pieces of gold per turn, at least until the region it's pacified and fully integrated to your empire.

    Know, as you have this sliders up your rats network will start to grow on the region, adding "points", levels or percentage to it, progressively and directly proportional to the amount of interest you put on them versus certain things like the happiness of the region with their current government and certain cultural modifiers. It would be really hard and expensive for Rome to have a spy network in Cartage for example.

    Anyhow, as your networks start to grow, things starts to happen at certain levels, like gaining random information about troop movements and camps, city population and happiness. Those would be passive actions that would happen automatically with minimal chances of getting caught.

    Then there are the active actions, like ordering the untimely dead of a specific political or military figure, the occasional fire of certain buildings and so on. But before you order those things you need to have certain levels of certain networks on those provinces. And each time you oder something the level of that province lowers a little or a lot depending on the importance of your deeds. Burning a farm is not so much notorious as trying to kill the emperor or chieftain don't you think? This, way each time you order something the level of the network drops, combined with a capped max amount of "points" in each region gives a mechanism that refraining you and the AI from simply stocking lots of points and razing all with your spies and assassins for example.

    As logic dictates, failed attempts could randomly drops the network level or "points" far more or even outright destroying the whole network with the risk of exposing you. But even successful attempts are not out of the scope of blowing everything. Why you ask? Imagine the agent gets caught, either after being successfully or not (of course failed attempts are way more prone to get caught) and he don't kill himself as ordered, and starts to sing all about who hired him and so on. This would make this kind of move more risky and exciting, adding a little more randomness and making developing a good network a necessity to get the job done.

    Just my two cents. I hope people don't get mad as this would effectively remove all agents from the game. Or not? Because you could still have a list of agents, and deploy them to the regions you would like to. You just simply would not move them on the board as a piece.
    If CA do that, then what interaction will you have on the strategic map ? besides seeing your armies move ?

    if Rome 2 is more character based then maybe agents can be replaced by characters? they are very similar

    R
    oOo

    Rome 2 refugee ...

    oOo

  20. #20
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Agents?

    Agents are characters. Well, you are right, the strategic map will be only for army movements, so it would seem a little "devoid of life". But how much? How much agents you have lying around anyway? Besides now the maps are filled with tons of useless but oh my, so much pretty and beautiful stuff. Birds, clouds and a lot of other things brings life to the map in a very nice way.

    About interaction there would be your armies, your navies and your cities, as usual. But don't you worry Rorarii, my good friend. Since CA would NEVER do something like my proposal
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
    Visit my utterly wall of doom here.
    Do you wanna play SS 6.4 and take your time while at it? Play with my 12 turns per year here.
    Y también quieres jugar Stainless Steel 100% en español? Mira por aca.

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